DCS: F-15C Poll

[AndrewDCS2005]

I would argue that full-fidelity high quality F-15C would make A TON OF MONEY for its authors, be in DCS or Razbam or Heatblur or whoever else. I'd speculate it will out-sell all top modules because:

- F-16C pilots will fall in love with raw performance, firepower, radar range, and BVR

- F/A-18C pilots who fly Hornet for range and A-A armament but don't really enjoy the navy life, with the need to get back to the deck on most of the servers where any sensible range for A/G missions require use of Hornets.

- F-15E pilots who bought it with a dream of kicking ass with radar, range and load, but find the perf and CFTs unsatisfying with poor dogfight experience, and continue to dream of kick-ass A/A

- F-14B pilots (outside of hardcore fans) who can find more modern speed and angels outside of fleet defense

- and many others who'd enjoy dedicated air dominance platform. Heck the above are mostly strike-tuned - yeah Boyd is overrated but he must be rolling in grave for what Viper has become - mostly a wild weasel with 3 bags and HARMs; Hornet is made to deliver GBUs/JDAMs on land targets from carrier, and Mudhen is a near-bomber strike platform for theaters with fixed airfields available. F-15C slots will be taken like hot cakes on many servers online and create lots of pain for red forces.

Edited December 26, 2023 by AndrewDCS2005

[cfrag]

20 hours ago, AndrewDCS2005 said:

I'd speculate it will out-sell all top modules because:

That's a tall order, considering that we can assume that ED have done their homework, looked at the market and have come to a financially viability decision, probably multiple times before.

20 hours ago, AndrewDCS2005 said:

F-16C pilots will fall in love with raw performance, firepower, radar range, and BVR

Maybe, but how is that tied to an FF module? The 15C is here right now. I'd also note that ED would not want to cannibalize their Falcon module, so I don't necessarily see a net win here

20 hours ago, AndrewDCS2005 said:

F/A-18C pilots who fly Hornet for range and A-A armament but don't really enjoy the navy life, with the need to get back to the deck on most of the servers where any sensible range for A/G missions require use of Hornets

That's a mission design thing then. And when we talk servers, we are talking multiplayer, a less than 10% customer base. Again, how would an FF Eagle would solve what a non FF Eagle can't in this scenario?

20 hours ago, AndrewDCS2005 said:

F-15E pilots who bought it with a dream of kicking ass with radar, range and load, but find the perf and CFTs unsatisfying with poor dogfight experience, and continue to dream of kick-ass A/A

The 15C is there for them right now. IMHO FF won't make that much of a difference.

20 hours ago, AndrewDCS2005 said:

F-14B pilots (outside of hardcore fans)

These unicorns do not exist. The Tomcat is a hardcore bird - if you love it, you're into it and will never stray. If you don't, you've gone on to other frames.

20 hours ago, AndrewDCS2005 said:

F-15C slots will be taken like hot cakes on many servers online and create lots of pain for red forces.

Do you have anything to back up that assertion? And again, we are talking 10% market share max, because multiplayer. And to get to 10%, every single one of them must be flying the Eagle. So realistically, we are talking 0.1% - 1% market share. That's not hot cakes in my mind. (full disclosure: I do fly on-line, and my favorite airframes are the Shark, Huey and Hornet, with me now slowly learning the Mudhen)

So yes, I'd love to see a FF 15C to complement my Mudhen. Simply declaring that it will be successful because I want it to be won't convince the powers that be at ED. Anything convincing must include the 90% single-player crowd. Here's hoping that one fine day it will happen. 

 

[draconus]

Market is easily there for FF F-15C. I'd assume almost all of the current FC3 F-15C owners, many of the F-15E owners, some pilots from other aircraft plus many new players would definitely buy the Eagle. It's iconic - one of the TOP 5 most known fighters.

[cfrag]

22 minutes ago, draconus said:

Market is easily there for FF F-15C.

On this forum, definitely. I wouldn't hesitate a heartbeat. But then, people here are a self-selected, eclectic bunch, many of us with strong ties to aviation - and the challenges and rewards that mastering complex processes bring. Here, we are preaching to the choir. Out there in the "real world" (shudder) of gaming - I'm not that convinced. Case in point, I'm having a difficult time getting people (who are more casual DCS players) to switch from the A-10A to the C - they like the fact that the A is easy to fly, and an FF cockpit is seldom something that would endear those cockpits to them if it gets in their way. Procedures to them appear as busywork. I don't know how evenly distributed this feeling is among less dedicated DCS players, but we should be prepared for the fact that outside of these forums, the FC-15C is fun enough, and spending 50-80 USD on something that is (in their eyes) essentially the same, just more difficult to fly, can turn out to be a hard sell. I hope I'm wrong.

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by cfrag

[draconus]

2 hours ago, cfrag said:

I'm having a difficult time getting people (who are more casual DCS players) to switch from the A-10A to the C - they like the fact that the A is easy to fly

I don't know where do you find those but DCS is all about FF since 2013 and every popular aircraft sells great.

Edited December 27, 2023 by draconus

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

2 hours ago, cfrag said:

they like the fact that the A is easy to fly

The A-10C is equally easy to fly. It's the systems that are more complex  

[henshao]

mcdonnell's previous jet is eagerly awaited by many around these parts, if that's any indication

[Evoman]

On 12/27/2023 at 5:45 AM, cfrag said:

That's a mission design thing then. And when we talk servers, we are talking multiplayer, a less than 10% customer base. Again, how would an FF Eagle would solve what a non FF Eagle can't in this scenario?

Don't forget about the many other Hornets that served other ground based Air forces in other Countries

These unicorns do not exist. The Tomcat is a hardcore bird - if you love it, you're into it and will never stray. If you don't, you've gone on to other frames.

I would also go ahead and add the F-4E Phantom to the list of future hardcore birds. There will definitely be a loyal Phantom following.    I am one of those Tomcat devotees. The Tomcat will always be part of my top 3 favorites birds. But I think that the Phantom might very well take one of the top spots over an F-15C.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Evoman

[Exorcet]

On 12/27/2023 at 5:45 AM, cfrag said:

Maybe, but how is that tied to an FF module? The 15C is here right now. I'd also note that ED would not want to cannibalize their Falcon module, so I don't necessarily see a net win here

 

Part of the Eagle allure is the systems. FC3 after many years finally gave the Eagle its proper radar range, but it is still missing tons of capability. You also can't even change the MFD page. The FC3 Eagle is not a bad module, but it's painfully evident that it's not FF and you cannot escape that fact any time you fly the other teen series fighters.

Cannibalization  shouldn't be a problem either, the F-16 and F-18 probably couldn't coexist if that were the case.

 

Quote

The 15C is there for them right now. IMHO FF won't make that much of a difference.

If that was the case one could ask why even make the E in the first place. Just add bombs to the C. FF is a selling point for DCS. Not for every single player, but enough that FC3 is for now at least considered the end of the line. I've enjoyed the FC3 Eagle, and for many years it was my staple aircraft, but it's extremely hard to go back to after the Hornet and Viper.

Quote

And again, we are talking 10% market share max, because multiplayer.

I can't speak for others, but I don't think the F-15 would struggle to find a presence in offline DCS. MP wouldn't be the sole driving force behind buying it.

As for the Eagle being the top selling module ever, I don't know, there is some stiff competition, but I find it really hard to see how it's at a disadvantage in terms of desirability.

 

On 12/27/2023 at 7:50 AM, cfrag said:

On this forum, definitely. I wouldn't hesitate a heartbeat. But then, people here are a self-selected, eclectic bunch, many of us with strong ties to aviation - and the challenges and rewards that mastering complex processes bring. Here, we are preaching to the choir. Out there in the "real world" (shudder) of gaming - I'm not that convinced. Case in point, I'm having a difficult time getting people (who are more casual DCS players) to switch from the A-10A to the C - they like the fact that the A is easy to fly, and an FF cockpit is seldom something that would endear those cockpits to them if it gets in their way. Procedures to them appear as busywork. I don't know how evenly distributed this feeling is among less dedicated DCS players, but we should be prepared for the fact that outside of these forums, the FC-15C is fun enough, and spending 50-80 USD on something that is (in their eyes) essentially the same, just more difficult to fly, can turn out to be a hard sell. I hope I'm wrong.

 

 

DCS is FF at this point. If someone isn't in to that, then it's probably not a series for them. The forums are a niche, yes, though that doesn't necessarily mean all opinions found here are niche. Perhaps counter intuitively, DCS has drawn from more casual crowds precisely because it's hardcore. You will always have people that prefer FC3, which is fine, but if those were the people DCS relied on, FC3 would likely be the norm and not an exception.

[GGTharos]

On 12/31/2023 at 8:34 AM, Exorcet said:

Part of the Eagle allure is the systems. FC3 after many years finally gave the Eagle its proper radar range, but it is still missing tons of capability. You also can't even change the MFD page. The FC3 Eagle is not a bad module, but it's painfully evident that it's not FF and you cannot escape that fact any time you fly the other teen series fighters.

Without even an FF module, let's talk about the 'little things' that you could do, which would also translate to the Su-27 and MiG-29 to some degree, let's start with those:

Sensors with more realistic search patterns and time required to execute those patterns (IRST vertical, looking at you)

Sensors correctly placing the targets visually in the sensor display as the aircraft turns.

Radar channel settings (which could lead to better ECM implementation) - channel settings can be chosen in the ME.

Eagle specific:  Hot/Cold symbols, cursor and target BRA/BULLS information, correct placement of NCTR data, waypoints on VSD, correct tws submodes using az-bump, and of course correct AACQ modes, including supersearch and GACQ.

All of this without a full up FF module.  Yes, there wouldn't be settings for anything but that's ok - I suppose no SIT page either, though it would be nice to get that.

[Exorcet]

9 hours ago, GGTharos said:

Without even an FF module, let's talk about the 'little things' that you could do, which would also translate to the Su-27 and MiG-29 to some degree, let's start with those:

ED could expand FC3 yeah, though I thought it was considered feature complete. The Eagle radar range was treated as a bug if I remember because it was so far off. I didn't think the missing features would be treated the same, but if they were it would be a nice FC3 upgrade. Though of course a FF F-15 would still be the best outcome.

[henshao]

On 1/1/2024 at 12:35 PM, GGTharos said:

Without even an FF module, let's talk about the 'little things' that you could do, which would also translate to the Su-27 and MiG-29 to some degree, let's start with those:

Sensors with more realistic search patterns and time required to execute those patterns (IRST vertical, looking at you)

Sensors correctly placing the targets visually in the sensor display as the aircraft turns.

Radar channel settings (which could lead to better ECM implementation) - channel settings can be chosen in the ME.

Eagle specific:  Hot/Cold symbols, cursor and target BRA/BULLS information, correct placement of NCTR data, waypoints on VSD, correct tws submodes using az-bump, and of course correct AACQ modes, including supersearch and GACQ.

All of this without a full up FF module.  Yes, there wouldn't be settings for anything but that's ok - I suppose no SIT page either, though it would be nice to get that.

of all the missing features the SIT page (datalink) I would trade the rest for without a second thought

[GGTharos]

I would not, all the other stuff gives you SA when DL is not available.

[Exorcet]

So with 2024 we've confirmed a module upgraded from FC to FF and we'll have Iraq at some point. So here's hoping for 2025.

[Buzz313th]

4 hours ago, Exorcet said:

So with 2024 we've confirmed a module upgraded from FC to FF and we'll have Iraq at some point. So here's hoping for 2025.

Wait what?  What are you saying?

[GGTharos]

He's not saying anything.  Don't read into someone's wishes.

[Buzz313th]

54 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

He's not saying anything.  Don't read into someone's wishes.

My wishes as well.

Unfortunately for ED, I will probably not be buying a FF Mig29A.  I would however buy a FF Eagle C. 

 

[Rick50]

On 1/5/2024 at 1:00 PM, Buzz313th said:

Wait what?  What are you saying?

Full Fidelity Mig-29 Fulcrum A, just announced 

[FlankerKiller]

With the announcement of the MiG-2A, I feel the need to reiterate my desire for a Cold War C model Eagle. It’s the perfect companion aircraft, and so much is already done. It looks like there is going to be a huge plane set for the late Cold War “soon,” in DCS terms anyway. The F-15C would fit right into it. It literally could have or did fight everything from the Fulcrum to the Tomcat. It’s a gold mine of a module just sitting there half completed as is. Think about it you could sell a 1980s C model then hit us with a small paid upgrade to a mid 2000s C with all the goodies. Just think about it. 

Edited January 7 by FlankerKiller

[Buzz313th]

Maybe we should just crowd fund the damn Eagle C?   And once there is a good size pot of funding, offer it up to a quality 3rd party dev.

[AvgeekJoe]

1 hour ago, Buzz313th said:

Maybe we should just crowd fund the damn Eagle C?   And once there is a good size pot of funding, offer it up to a quality 3rd party dev.

I like this model.

We could do the same for the F-111, the F/A-18E/F, and more.

[Buzz313th]

10 hours ago, AvgeekJoe said:

I like this model.

We could do the same for the F-111, the F/A-18E/F, and more.

You could.. But crowdfunding a project like this is not easy and to make it more enticing you would need to offer money back if the project never starts.

Edited January 23 by Buzz313th

[PLAAF]

F-15C is the best 4th gen air superiority heavy fighter on the US side, that's why we definitely need it in DCS.
Since we have the F-15E, I doubt we will get any trouble from the US government for getting the F-15C. However, in case there is any issue that we don't know about and for that issue, the US government won't allow it, I will be happy if we can still get an F-15A.

[GGTharos]

There's no problem with an F-15C other than the willingness of some party to create it as a module.

[falcon_120]

I like this model.
We could do the same for the F-111, the F/A-18E/F, and more.

I dont like the idea a lot.

As bad as i would love the F15c and would support any 3rd party that would engage in that task financially, i think a good module needs to steam from the love and true interest of a 3rd party rather that from an auction to the best bidder.

An unknown 3rd party that accepts doing that just because there is a good chunk of money to start is a recipe for disaster. Doing the minimum to meet whatever initial promise is in the Crowdfunding.

Now if we have the luck of a good trustworthy 3rd party taking the mission and they decide to open a CF to support the investment..., then I'm in.

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