INTRUSO_BR Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 I would like you to review the damage caused by gunshots from this aircraft. because the damage caused is inferior to reality 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted January 7, 2021 ED Team Share Posted January 7, 2021 Do you have some examples or tracks for me? I have really not found there to be that much of a problem with the new Damage Model. But you havent given me much to go on? 1 Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcT-NL Posted March 15, 2021 Share Posted March 15, 2021 (edited) Regardless of track, it is true (and has been for a long time now) that in most planes in DCS, a few rounds are enough to sever a wing or at least set fire to the engines of your enemy. In the P-51, I can land half a magazine onto a FW-109 for instance, before it becomes more or less unflyable. Seems a bit odd. I'll try and find a track if that is what's needed to convince anyone. Edited March 15, 2021 by MarcT-NL 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razo+r Posted March 15, 2021 Share Posted March 15, 2021 29 minutes ago, MarcT-NL said: Regardless of track, it is true (and has been for a long time now) that in most planes in DCS, a few rounds are enough to sever a wing or at least set fire to the engines of your enemy. In the P-51, I can land half a magazine onto a FW-109 for instance, before it becomes more or less unflyable. Seems a bit odd. I'll try and find a track if that is what's needed to convince anyone. Fw-109? Which one now, Fw-190 or Bf-109? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcT-NL Posted March 15, 2021 Share Posted March 15, 2021 It was a very secret ww2-plane ! No, but either one. Problem is with the P-51 I think. It's bullets just don't do much damage it seems, while a few rounds from the enemy is enough to put it out of commission. Maybe it is my imagination. Maybe it is as it is supposed to be, but no matter how good a dogfighter you are. You just don't have enough bullets to take out 2 enemies... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grafspee Posted March 15, 2021 Share Posted March 15, 2021 4 hours ago, MarcT-NL said: It was a very secret ww2-plane ! No, but either one. Problem is with the P-51 I think. It's bullets just don't do much damage it seems, while a few rounds from the enemy is enough to put it out of commission. Maybe it is my imagination. Maybe it is as it is supposed to be, but no matter how good a dogfighter you are. You just don't have enough bullets to take out 2 enemies... I bet that ED is working hard on DM improvements. So lets wait for patch System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogster Posted March 15, 2021 Share Posted March 15, 2021 You have to think about the P51s mission, protecting bombers from enemy fighters. It didn’t need to be a heavy hitter, just carry plenty of ammo and dissuade an attack or cause enough damage to convince the opposing pilot to bail out. That said 50cal AP was really quite anaemic by 1944. RAF fighters were hitting with 20mm rounds containing 6g of RDX, the fast firing Hispano meant if you hit with one you’d probably hit with more. German 13mm was explosive so hitting with much more energy than US 50cal, the reality is that the P51 was under gunned even compared to the 1944 109. The weight of the US home armaments lobby shouldn’t be underestimated. Brownings supporters were a powerful force. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted March 15, 2021 ED Team Share Posted March 15, 2021 Are we talking vs human opponents or AI? Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcT-NL Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 AI. I didn't know it would make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted March 17, 2021 ED Team Share Posted March 17, 2021 Well it does in that a player will stay in the cockpit at times longer than an AI, I generally dont see an issue with bringing down AI with .50 cals, do you have some example tracks please? 1 1 Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Film Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 I have noticed the same, I have set a mission with a P-51D against lowest skill Fw 190 A-8, and I just keep hitting him and hitting him from behind from a very close range, and he just keeps flying and flying. Then he sets on fire, and still keeps flying and flying. Until finally goes down. But when I tried a Bf 109 K-4 against a P-51D, just few hits from its 13mm machine guns set the P-51D on fire immediatelly and he went straight down. Maybe if those German 13mm were explosive ammo, and American .50 cal was not explosive, maybe that would make the difference, but I still feel that the P-51D's bullets are underpowered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Film Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 I have tried once again today, and now it seems much better. Maybe something was improved, or it was just my impression, anyways thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MADLOU1 Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 I always felt (and still feel) the mustang's guns are weak in DCS. I've shot almost a whole load into a enemy plane at close range at times and the darn thing still flies. I've listened to countless p51 pilot interviews and none of them reported this. Also, the gun camera footage I've seen seems to indicate the guns are too weak. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Film Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 I have seen a real Mustang pilot interview in which he said that those six .50 machine guns would cut Bf 109s wing like a saw, and I definitely can't see that in DCS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted May 6, 2021 ED Team Share Posted May 6, 2021 tracks Tracks Tracks.... people saying they tried today, and I see no tracks. Tracks Please. 1 Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted May 6, 2021 ED Team Share Posted May 6, 2021 8 hours ago, Silent Film said: I have set a mission with a P-51D against lowest skill Fw 190 A-8, and I just keep hitting him and hitting him from behind from a very close range, and he just keeps flying and flying. Then he sets on fire, and still keeps flying and flying. Until finally goes down. 1 Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Film Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 Like I said, I have tried it once again today, and it seemed better. Although, I have never had such good results like in that video. But sometimes, it was so annoying, like Fw 190 A-8 just wouldn't die. If I encounter with that situation once again, I will post a video replay. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Film Posted May 7, 2021 Share Posted May 7, 2021 Yesterday, I have tried to test it once again, and maybe I have actually come to something. I had a short dogfight with Dora, and after it was destroyed, it just kept on flying, but backwards, very strange. It is obviously some bug or glitch. Maybe something similar was happening sometimes before, but the program wouldn't tell the aircraft was destroyed, and it just kept flying forwards, no matter how much I kept hitting it. Amazing P-51D-25 Mustang vs. Fw 190 D-9 Dora (DCS) - YouTube (Didn't know how to post a You Tube video and that the thumbnail can be seen.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted May 7, 2021 ED Team Share Posted May 7, 2021 Are you running Open Beta or Stable? Also, do you have the track for that? I have never seen the flying backwards, but heard about it a few times. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Film Posted May 7, 2021 Share Posted May 7, 2021 I am running stable version. I don't have the track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MADLOU1 Posted May 9, 2021 Share Posted May 9, 2021 On 5/6/2021 at 12:47 PM, Silent Film said: I have seen a real Mustang pilot interview in which he said that those six .50 machine guns would cut Bf 109s wing like a saw, and I definitely can't see that in DCS. Exactly! DCS makes you want to always fly with unlimited ammo because it takes so much ammo to take down a plane that is only a few yards in front of you. I've heard many ww2 and Korean pilots say how it only took a 2-3 second burst to bring down an enemy plane. On 5/6/2021 at 1:14 PM, NineLine said: At least that plane eventually went down. I've shot numerous planes with a lot more ammo at the same or closer ranger and the things keep going like they were barely touched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zilch Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 (edited) 16 hours ago, MADLOU1 said: At least that plane eventually went down. I've shot numerous planes with a lot more ammo at the same or closer ranger and the things keep going like they were barely touched. Keep in mind the difference between these cases. The Saber and Mustang carried similar weapons, but there are some important differences. Number one that comes to mind is bullet dispersion. The Mustang's guns were two groups of three, with each group (SWAG math) around 15 feet apart from one another. This creates an interesting problem if you want to hit a focused area with all six guns, and it gets really complicated at different ranges, bank angles, pitch angles, and so on. Look at a WWII fighter's gun harmonization diagram, and you see that usually the guns don't all cross paths except at one point, usually around 1100 feet in front. Any closer than that, and your striking power gets gut pretty quick. Chances are good that if you're up that close, you're hitting with only three of those guns, max, while the rest shoot wide. Too far of a shot, and you get the same effect but after the convergence point, and with less kinetic energy in each round as they loose speed and start to drop and tumble. The F-86, like the P-38, had all its guns in one cluster, pretty much eliminating this problem. If you hit with one, you usually hit with all six, making the guns far more effective across a broader range, from close in all the way out to max effective range for the M3. Two, is that the F-86 was shooting a jet-powered target, with its engine in the back. If you're on his tail, line up the sight, and hit with all six guns, they'll rip right into the engine itself more easily than the P-51 shooting, in the above example, the FW-190 with its engine in the front, which was covered by the entire aircraft and some armor plate. Attacking from above or below may help this a bit, though, but then you have a higher aspect angle, so the aim problem becomes harder. Another difference is that the F-86's weapon was similar, but not identical. It carried the M3, versus the M2, which is lighter, has a higher rate of fire, with more accuracy, so total projectile mass on any target hit would be usually higher than you'd see in your average P-51 shot. This does not mean there's no problem with DCS's AI with regard to BFM, in particular the MiG-15 is quite a challenge sometimes. However, without track files or even TacView, it's hard to say what a actually is going on. I like TacView a lot, you can actually see the bullet dispersion in real time. Often I think I had a good shot, but the baddie flies away merrily, but on watching TacView I see that I scored hits, but the target was flying in the outside edge of my dispersion cone, and only got hit by maybe 10% of the rounds that I fired that burst. He was too far, too close, too far from the center of the cone, you name it, and I'm hitting with one or two guns (17% or 33%) of what I *could* be hitting him with. That focal point, 1100 feet in front, at which all six guns are likely to hit, is a very small volume of space when you consider the speeds and angles involved in a dogfight. It's hard enough to get into elbow position, and doing so at a specific range is a real feat of skill. Snap shots? Good luck! You might hit with a lucky round in a vital area, but it's unlikely. That, and in a traditional dogfight against a front-engine aircraft, chances are high that you're not directly hitting the engine from a rear quarter tracking shot, may be causing what you see. And, hey, the FW-190 is built like a work truck. Sometimes, usually around 1100 feet, I'll find that the Mustang's guns will rip apart a FW-190 in far under a second. More often, if the range, aspect and whatnot are off just a bit, I have to hose the target down a lot more for the same effect, which also causes the guns to heat up and lose accuracy...it goes on and on, doesn't it? Edited May 10, 2021 by Zilch 4 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Zilch79's YouTube Channel: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted May 11, 2021 ED Team Share Posted May 11, 2021 On 5/9/2021 at 11:48 AM, MADLOU1 said: Exactly! DCS makes you want to always fly with unlimited ammo because it takes so much ammo to take down a plane that is only a few yards in front of you. I've heard many ww2 and Korean pilots say how it only took a 2-3 second burst to bring down an enemy plane. At least that plane eventually went down. I've shot numerous planes with a lot more ammo at the same or closer ranger and the things keep going like they were barely touched. I need to see tracks, certainly not my experience. 1 Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted May 11, 2021 ED Team Share Posted May 11, 2021 2 Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exorcet Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 Damage seems to depend on where you hit. The Fw-190 is vulnerable from below-rear shots. It tends to catch fire or explode. If you don't hit it there it can take more punishment, but the P-51 is very capable of killing the Fw-190's engine. If there is anything I think damage to control surfaces needs more effect. Shooting the tips of both wings for example should cause the AI to lose roll control, right now it doesn't seem to have much effect. Fw190boom.trk Fw190damage1.trk Fw190damage2.trk Fw190noboom.trk 2 Awaiting: DCS F-15C Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts