correct as-is P51- insufficient shot damage

[kablamoman]

7 hours ago, NineLine said:

(disclaimer our fuel/ammo explosions still are not in).

 

Hey this is interesting, @NineLine.

 

I had always assumed that big fireball effect you see sometimes was some kind of fuel explosion. Is that not what it is? Or is it simply the ignition of fuel that's already being vented as opposed to fuel exploding in the tank?

[DD_Fenrir]

There are occasional allied air combat reports of the empennage of a Luftwaffe aircraft being severed from the fuselage but I suspect this could be due to detonation of the oxygen bottle(s) that in some types were located in the rear fuselage.

 

[NineLine]

9 minutes ago, DD_Fenrir said:

There are occasional allied air combat reports of the empennage of a Luftwaffe aircraft being severed from the fuselage but I suspect this could be due to detonation of the oxygen bottle(s) that in some types were located in the rear fuselage.

 

I am not saying its 100% impossible, just like in DCS its there, but its not hollywood wing loss, if that makes sense. You have to work for it.

 

This was a simple little vid I did, but watch near the end, the wing breaks off from damage and stress.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, kablamoman said:

 

Hey this is interesting, @NineLine.

 

I had always assumed that big fireball effect you see sometimes was some kind of fuel explosion. Is that not what it is? Or is it simply the ignition of fuel that's already being vented as opposed to fuel exploding in the tank?

Its more a WIP because its not dialed in, the big fireball you see sometimes mostly does no damage.

[Coco22]

12 hours ago, NineLine said:

Even if you hit with AP, it is going to take a good concentration of fire in the same spot, which is nearly impossible, nearly.

it is not enought in my try ? 

a 50 cal bullet can penetrate 16mm of steal at 500 meters and 23mm at 10 meters no ? 

what is the size of that spars ?

 

Yeh i know and understand what you explain but when i see this video with the p51 it s hard for me to accept the is wing steel here.

 

Yeh IL 2 is not a good reference it was just for show you.

Because i am not able to refind the documentary of farmer pilot how tell his story when he shoot the wing of the 109 and other footage camera. i will try to find it.

I don t want to cut a wing of a 109 at every burst but some time is seems to be acceptable no?

You should try to cut the wing of a 109 or D9.

From my point of, it s really easly to shoot the FW190A8 ( probably because it is the lastest module in DCS WW2, so better done or more realistic no ? )

For me i see no problem to cut the wing of the FW190A8 is not suposed to be the stronger ?

 

when i m in dogfight that breaking my imertion.

i know 50cal are not magic

 M2A1 Shoot BF109.trk

M2A1 Shoot FW190A8.trk its works good 

M2A1 Shoot FW190A8 second try.trk  this is clearly unrealistic don't tell me otherwise

bofor 40mm Shoot FW190A8.trk ????? it s frustrating

bofor 40mm just destroy an A10C.trk it s unbelievable

 

 

I think the problem is not 50cal but more the model plane.

I know we get new damage model it s probably not ended.

 

I start whith war thunder i know it s a acarde game not a real sime, now i fly only on DCS is just to show something presicely and it s the best way i found to do that 

is that the correct size of spars ? i know he miss a lot of renforcement and other thing

if yes 

the 109 spars are really thinner than the FW and for me it s impossible a 50cal can not just cut that whit a good burst 

The 109 is more lighter than a FW and in DCS i feel is stronger than the FW 

 

[Coco22]

i think the problem is not 50cal

 

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Coco22

[Enduro14]

.50cal doesn't magically saw things in half.  ED's representation is pretty good and as the damage model matures things only get more realistic.  Like Nineline has said, wings generally come off an aircraft due to a secondary explosion, weather thats an ammo belt or fuel cell.  I imagine once those are added it will be a little more dynamic.  

 

  ps.  I think allot of us, myself included have been misguided in what and how .50cals do via Terminal Ballistics from old ww2 games and sims with not accurate and calculated damage models.  Having the experience of using an M2 Allot in the Real glad to see ED making it much more in depth Terminal Ballistic sim on this damage model.  Goes without saying, with an armor piercing incendiary round its on the end user to get those rounds on critical structure and parts to do effective damage.  Now add in the Flying part....  this generation was the best for a reason....

Edited September 23, 2021 by Enduro14

[Coco22]

20 minutes ago, Enduro14 said:

.50cal doesn't magically saw things in half. 

i never said that and i do not want that i just want something realistic and when i see a F18 can't cut the 109 i m sry it s unrealistic from far.

for me te problem is not 50 cal but damage model for wing or fuselage 

for engine tanks other things like that, that work very well.

[Enduro14]

23 minutes ago, Coco22 said:

i never said that and i do not want that i just want something realistic and when i see a F18 can't cut the 109 i m sry it s unrealistic from far.

for me te problem is not 50 cal but damage model for wing or fuselage 

for engine tanks other things like that, that work very well.

F18 is 20mm Gatling right?  Much Higher fire rate and muzzle velocity.... also a bigger shot group as well as intended.  Much different than a .50cal  Well just read your response again  so it cant cut a 109?  Well like has been said damage model is work in progress, anyways cutting a wing in half I don't personally believe is a common occurrence ,  main wing spar are hard and reinforced will take literally a perfect Situation to cut that thing.  Now add in a ammo belt or fuel explosion I can see it.

  Kept my error in reading your post in to add context

Edited September 23, 2021 by Enduro14

[NineLine]

The DM is tuned with WWII in mind right now, it's very possible that rounds from modern aircraft that work well with the modern aircraft are not tuned with the new DM in mind yet.

1 hour ago, Coco22 said:

I start whith war thunder

Let me stop you right there... We are not modelling War Thunder or IL2, if you find a lot of vids of machine guns cutting wings from historical gun cameras, that would be the place to start.

[Coco22]

14 minutes ago, NineLine said:

We are not modelling War Thunder or IL2

I NEVER SAID  that i know and thanks dcs is not like this arcade games

i said 

1 hour ago, Coco22 said:

i know it s a acarde game not a real sime

is not a simulator just like dcs

 

and did you watch the tracks ? 

[Capitaine_Flaime]

Good morning! In short, the German side is always the strongest, the strongest, the best in fact !!!! The Mustang is unable to detach the control surfaces on the 109 and D9; unable to cut a tail; unable to cut a wing .... because of its small caliber? ..... Strange ..... even the 20mm of the Spitfire are incapable, let's not talk about its "small" machine guns which only make sparks ..... Strange ..... the 109 which is made shoot by a 109 .... which does not lose its wing, its tail like all allied planes ..... Strange .... that the Mosquito is not able to cut an aircraft in four with its 4x20mm. ..... Strange ..... all the allied planes manage to quickly knock out a JU88 ... but not a 109 or d9 ...... only direct kills on the engine can stop these nasty cuckoos. ..... you had to empty a full magazine in real war to shoot down a 109, a D9 .... ??????? I always hear about people reporting ballistic "data", material resistance always in favor of German planes .... they must have been part of the engineers who manufactured, assembled these planes ......
The fact is that there was a real difference in armaments, calibers, types of projectiles between each coalition during the second war. And no one is able to prove with exactness the true technical data of these !! It is therefore necessary to adjust also according to the feelings of your "customers" to get closer to something more "logical", "coherent" ...... In addition, the tests and developments of the new damage are done against AI .... in a network where the AI is ejected, the player would still be able to fly ....
I've been on DCS for a long time, I'm able to shoot anywhere I want and I'm not the only one for sure. So, telling me that with one of the allied planes it is not possible to tear off an important element on a 109 or D9 is absurd !!! For many people in the WWII community this aberration is a big cause for dissatisfaction ... many go to IL2 ..... I love DCS which is very promising and I thank the whole team for the work done so far .... and I wish this would continue ... I think you should rethink the strength of these planes a bit down. Thank you for thinking about it.
Yours, CPT-flaime

[Coco22]

at 01.05.20 go check 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Coco22

[NineLine]

35 minutes ago, Capitaine_Flaime said:

The Mustang is unable to detach the control surfaces on the 109 and D9

False.

 

35 minutes ago, Capitaine_Flaime said:

even the 20mm of the Spitfire are incapable

False

35 minutes ago, Capitaine_Flaime said:

but not a 109 or d9

False

36 minutes ago, Capitaine_Flaime said:

you had to empty a full magazine in real war to shoot down a 109, a D9

false

36 minutes ago, Capitaine_Flaime said:

I always hear about people reporting ballistic "data", material resistance always in favor of German planes

No idea what you mean

37 minutes ago, Capitaine_Flaime said:

It is therefore necessary to adjust also according to the feelings of your "customers" to get closer to something more "logical", "coherent"

Huh? We will stick to all the technical docs on the subject.

37 minutes ago, Capitaine_Flaime said:

In addition, the tests and developments of the new damage are done against AI

False

 

38 minutes ago, Capitaine_Flaime said:

o, telling me that with one of the allied planes it is not possible to tear off an important element on a 109 or D9 is absurd !!!

I can and have shown many times the ease of which it is to knock of ailerons and such, or even in the right place, shoot down a German plane

39 minutes ago, Capitaine_Flaime said:

I think you should rethink the strength of these planes a bit down. Thank you for thinking about it.

We do our best to base the strength of the wings based on an assorted number of technical documents out there, if you see an issue, you need to report it with a track.

 

40 minutes ago, Capitaine_Flaime said:

in a network where the AI is ejected, the player would still be able to fly ....

This will always be a problem, its why we added player injuries and discomfort for flying a damaged aircraft, both these do need tuning, but 9 times out of 10, a player will stay in an aircraft way longer than they should, or would in real life, there is not much we can do here, we will NOT knock off wings or tails to force them out if that is not the damage being done, that is an age old problem we are working to have a better solution to.

 

Thnaks

[Enduro14]

work in progress damage model, and Us as a ww2 flight sim community have been sensitized to a certain result due to unrealistic damage models in the industry.   This isn't a German vs USA thing its a terminal ballistic thing that's a work in progress.  I suspect wings will be more prone to detaching from said airframe with ammo belts and fuel explosions.  But its the same old crap arguments in every ww2 sim community. 

[NineLine]

28 minutes ago, Coco22 said:

at 01.05.20 go check 

i will find other footage if it s needed 

 

The one that starts at 1:05:20 you can see a burst of something before the wing comes off, something catastrophic happened there, something burst/exploded. It wasn't a sawing of the wing. Also remember, you do not know what G's they are pulling at the time either, it could be damage + G's on the surface.

56 minutes ago, Coco22 said:

I NEVER SAID  that i know and thanks dcs is not like this arcade games

i said 

Ok, then review our forum rules and stop posting stuff from other games, its not relevant.

57 minutes ago, Coco22 said:

and did you watch the tracks ? 

Not yet, I just woke up a short time ago, I will review today.

[Coco22]

 

[NineLine]

 

That's the topic, if you have other issues, report a bug properly in the proper forum. 

 

As far as your track is concerned, while you did severely damage one spar, the other was intact. If the aircraft had been flying, as the gun and aircraft are designed to interact, the aircraft would have been killed. Not sure what else to say at this point.

 

You can see in this image, the main spar is severed in one spot, but the wing still has 50% strength total, this, at the end of the day is a video game, and making damage effects look like they would in real life is not technically possible. But in my humble opinion that wing looks like garbage now, I know you feel the need to have the wing fly off, but its not always going to be the case. I believe the Bofors shell is an HE one as well, not an AP.

 

[River]

Best indication is when the die hard Axis MP pilots try out the Allied aircraft. It's mostly a matter of a few flight hours till they switch back.

[Dusty44]

I would say diehard is in the job description of any ww2 pilot. Kill the other guy and don’t die. Diehard one is the best one imho.
 

Now I have a Mk108 cannon

           HO-HO-HO

[PD919]

I can attest to this issue.  I've emptied half the belt into Bf-109 or FW and they will only have white smoke.  The AI doesn't even adjust their flight path or slow down.

When I dogfight the P51, 1 quick burst will take it out of the fight and another burst will down it.  I know the German planes were tougher but I doubt it was that extreme.

Edited November 8, 2021 by PD919

[NineLine]

1 hour ago, PD919 said:

I can attest to this issue.  I've emptied half the belt into Bf-109 or FW and they will only have white smoke.  The AI doesn't even adjust their flight path or slow down.

When I dogfight the P51, 1 quick burst will take it out of the fight and another burst will down it.  I know the German planes were tougher but I doubt it was that extreme.

 

I'll need to see tracks, I have seen many claims of emptying half a belt, when more than half of that hits air. Please supply tracks or this cannot be look at, I have no such issue.

[Doughguy]

Ive made a few more dogfights against the 109´s and 190´s with approaches from different angles.

On the first sortie ive made a quick burst into the engine of an 109 and is basically went down immediately in flames. Stroke of luck.

With others bein on the six i sure do pump a bit more lead down the fuselage but i have more problems actually "hitting" .
Adjusting wingspan / distance etc is bit tough, especially doin it on the fly or whilest snaking and shaking around wildly.

Sight is set to "10" for distance (guess its 1000 feet, like the p51s guns convergence point?) and i usually engange at about 0,3 to 0,2 NM (why nautical miles it is?. consistency...)

The first few blasts hit the fuselage pretty good. Some produce smoke some just debris. RARELY first bursts will take it down.

Below 0,2 NM i´m just shredding wings, some left right rudder can give it a broadside. But they wont get down, immediately. Usually they sort of "phase" out of the fight and prepare for a belly landing.

The 109 and 190 had (just like other planes) some more serious armour plating behind the cockpit... hence it wont got down quick.

High speed convergence and deflections shots usually do good damage.

 

I will try to save some tracks but if i replay these in the editor, the replay often is quite totally different....

EG me firing on a 109 with  50m vertical offset... wheres ingame ive sat on its 6.... kinda threw me off when i rewatched it.

 

And yea, the germans can do a bit more damage. Cannons vs .50 cal..

But hey... in a fight between P-51 vs F-14 ive survived a missile blast in my then totally shredded and barely flying Mustang and shot down the Tomcat ( but crashed into it later on...)

[NineLine]

18 hours ago, Doughguy said:

I will try to save some tracks but if i replay these in the editor, the replay often is quite totally different....

I have had great luck playing back tracks, but they need to be recent, something from months ago with so many changes will be an issue.

18 hours ago, Doughguy said:

But hey... in a fight between P-51 vs F-14 ive survived a missile blast in my then totally shredded and barely flying Mustang and shot down the Tomcat ( but crashed into it later on...)

Totally irrelevant, P-51 has new DM, missiles and damage are not tuned for the new DM, and the F-14 has the older DM. Please dont bring this as evidence.

[Doughguy]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb NineLine:

I have had great luck playing back tracks, but they need to be recent, something from months ago with so many changes will be an issue.

Ive joined up not so long ago. Just two updates so far.

I was just wondering if the playback tracks are of any use, as when i actually load them into the editor and watch them, its more or less something totally different from the thing ive "played"?

 

Zitat

Totally irrelevant, P-51 has new DM, missiles and damage are not tuned for the new DM, and the F-14 has the older DM. Please dont bring this as evidence.

No worries, never intended to.

[Doughguy]

Alright, made a few quick sorties today.

Excuse my crap flying and marksmanship skills, i´m still learning.

After revisiting my wingspan/distance settings i´ve set up the wingspan for the d9 to approx 34 ft and on the k4 approx 32 feet.
Distance set to 1100 feet when at 0.2 nm and 600 feet when at 0.1nm and below.

When i engange at 0.2nm with piper dead center and give a good 1 sec burst the results are quite fatal imho? Either the engine gets busted or the pilot dies, depending on angle etc. All with a few places bursts. 

But if i aim crap and pepper the plane..... well.. it keeps flying unsurprisingly?

So the k4 and d9 arent invicible if dialed in right placed a well shot. But hollywoodesque "thinggoesboom" stuff wont happen as much unless you hit something  "delicate". Not sure if ED has modeled that but ive seen youtube videos where guys managed to shoot of  109/190´s wings.

Is there a way to force the ai play dumb and fly straight w/o engaging?

damagetest_d9_1.trk damagetest_d9_2.trk damagetest_k4_1.trk damagetest_k4_2.trk

Edited November 11, 2021 by Doughguy