not planned Easy mode AAR

[Exorcet]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s really better if the “practice” mission skips the long approach and starts you a bit astern of the tanker. That’s how the Hornet one is. The approach is relatively easy. The part which requires all the practice is up close. Repeating the long approach every time isn’t very time efficient. If you want to practice the approach you could open up any canned mission with an tanker in it. 

If they don’t know how the throttle works they’re not ready for AAR. I don’t think anyone is that noobish though. 

Sure a practice mission could be condensed. But you were arguing that a training mission can't exist. I was point out why a training mission can exist.

 

You're also right that not knowing how to use a throttle means you're not ready for AAR, but that's totally unrelated to anything in the thread so far.

[Tippis]

11 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

If they don’t know how the throttle works they’re not ready for AAR. I don’t think anyone is that noobish though. 

Guess what a good training mission built on top of the proper toolset could teach people…

 

And of course people are that noobish. Everyone was at the start.

[SharpeXB]

27 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

In other words, use a 3rd party tutorial to do the devs' jobs for them. For a module you probably paid a lump sum for in your currency of choice. Yeah, that's not what I expect for a finished, polished product. AAR is part of the module's functionality, and it's the devs' job to provide training missions that cover everything from the start of the rejoin to the disconnect and establishing yourself on the tanker's right wing. They can do it in house or commission a member of community, but they should do it before the release.

Sure the modules could have them. But the “what to do” part is pretty simple. It’s not going to help those who won’t practice it. They’ll still keep complaining and asking for an easy button. 
It’s worth remembering that most all these modules are still in early access. The A-10C does have a full set of AAR day and night training missions from Maple Flag. Hopefully MF will make that sort of qualification course for the F-18 etc but those will have to be out of EA I’m sure in order for them to make a fully authentic course. The M-2000C has an AAR session built into its campaign. So maybe we could see AAR training missions in the future. But again it’s not going to help those who won’t help themselves. 

9 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Sure a practice mission could be condensed. But you were arguing that a training mission can't exist. I was point out why a training mission can exist.

I’m not saying training or practice missions don’t or can’t exist. Clearly you need the practice. The problem is people don’t want to put the practice in. And no mission can hold your hand literally. You really need to put the hours in yourself. 

[Tippis]

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s not going to help those who won’t practice it.

No, but it will help those who do practice. That is part of the point, after all. It would also help those that can't be helped by practice. Both are good things.

 

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

They’ll still keep complaining and asking for an easy button. 

And…?

 

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

But again it’s not going to help those who won’t help themselves. 

That makes it a pretty bad implementation then. Maybe skip it until there is a toolset that actually improves the learning rather than waste time on something that doesn't actually help in any useful way. Hmm. Good point: first toolset, then tutorials built on top of that toolset — tutorials that actually do the job properly, which they can't really do at the moment.

[Dragon1-1]

Proper built-in AAR missions will definitely help, for the simple reason that people will see them and try to do them, as opposed to being thrown into the deep end and being told to figure every single bit of it themselves. You don't need any additional "toolset" that would hog development time from something more important. Any extra helpers will only create bad habits. You already have all the helpers you'll ever need in the cockpit, you just need to know what they are. For example, in the Tomcat, it's the right "30" on pitch ladder in AA HUD mode. Put it on the hose, keep it there, and you'll just ride straight into the basket. Try it, it really is that easy.

[SharpeXB]

11 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Proper built-in AAR missions will definitely help,

Those already exist. And the fact that they’re available hasn’t led to a surge of players able to do this. It’s not an impossible skill though, it just requires practice. Some people just can’t grasp that or aren’t willing to put in the time and want an easy button. 
But I’m pretty sure everyone here can ride a bicycle, right? Ok if you can do that you can AAR. Nothing magical about it, just practice. 

[Fri13]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

But I’m pretty sure everyone here can ride a bicycle, right? Ok if you can do that you can AAR. Nothing magical about it, just practice. 

 

What a argument against the wish.... 

[Dragon1-1]

26 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Those already exist. And the fact that they’re available hasn’t led to a surge of players able to do this.

No, they don't. They're just simple setups for practice, if they're even there (which, if you fly FC3, Mirage or JF-17, there aren't). They tell you nothing, just drop you behind the tanker and you have to figure it out from there with no help at all. They're in "single missions" not in "training" for a reason.

 

Tell me, when you learned to ride a bike, did you just hop on it and fell over until you somehow figured it out, or did you have someone instructing you? From my experience, the latter way is much less time consuming and painful.

[Tippis]

26 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Those already exist.

Nope.

 

26 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Some people just can’t grasp that or aren’t willing to put in the time and want an easy button. 

And you still have no answer for the question: so what?

Even if a good set of helper tools ended up being used as an easy button, how is that in any way, shape, or form an argument against their implementation?

 

26 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

But I’m pretty sure everyone here can ride a bicycle, right?

So you're saying that DCS should most definitely come with training wheels and some good hand-holding to allow people to learn how to ride this particular bicycle.

[Ebein]

Funny how this typically draws down to either Git-Gud or turn on unlimited fuel.  As stated most of my pilots AAR with little issue, but several of our guys fly with their 70-80 year old fathers and since we cant turn on unlimited fuel on a pilot by pilot basis an option where they can still join us on longer missions is what I'm asking for.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

No, they don't. They're just simple setups for practice, if they're even there (which, if you fly FC3, Mirage or JF-17, there aren't). They tell you nothing, just drop you behind the tanker and you have to figure it out from there with no help at all. They're in "single missions" not in "training" for a reason.

 

Tell me, when you learned to ride a bike, did you just hop on it and fell over until you somehow figured it out, or did you have someone instructing you? From my experience, the latter way is much less time consuming and painful.

Well obviously a game cannot literally hold your hand. So you are really on your own. It’s perhaps telling that ED hasn’t tried to make training missions for AAR, because they would be of little benefit. The best practice is simply to spend the hours with the tanker. They also know it’s an advanced skill and not something every player does or needs. The people who are motivated enough to put in the practice are also motivated enough to find the information on their own. 

[Dragon1-1]

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Well obviously a game cannot literally hold your hand. So you are really on your own. It’s perhaps telling that ED hasn’t tried to make training missions for AAR, because they would be of little benefit.

Here's a hint: Get yourself a Harrier, and don't come back here until you know how properly done AAR training mission looks like. A game can "hold your hand" with a properly made training mission. That's what they're for. In fact, this "hand holding" by an instructor makes all the difference. "Figure it out on your own" is a terrible design decision, good games are not done that way. Real pilots don't have to figure it out on their own, either. 

 

I suspect ED hasn't tried to make training missions for AAR likely because their own mission creator can't do it. Which is not a surprise, developers rarely have enough time to fly as much as they'd like. Maps being rather small is another factor, maybe they thought it won't come up with the usual flying distances. Either way, the devs have neglected this aspect somewhat.

 

Consider this: Falcon 4.0 contained an AAR training mission. One that, despite not having interactive instruction (you were expected to fly it referencing a giant book that was its manual), did a great job at teaching you everything you needed to know to plug your F-16 to the tanker. In 1998, flying with a crappy old stick (unless you were an early CH adopter) and likely controlling the throttle with a wheel on the base (unless you had a CH throttle and multiple gameports). People could and did refuel their F-16 just fine. There was a simplified mode (understandable in those days, given the hardware limitations), but the manual advised you not to use it because it fostered bad habits.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Ebein said:

Funny how this typically draws down to either Git-Gud or turn on unlimited fuel. 

Those aren’t the only options. How about just don’t fly such long missions when those players are with you? Or spend some time teaching them AAR 

[Tippis]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Well obviously a game cannot literally hold your hand. So you are really on your own.

That doesn't follow. The game can figuratively hold your hand, after all, so you're not actually on your own.

 

Quote

It’s perhaps telling that ED hasn’t tried to make training missions for AAR, because they would be of little benefit.

“Perhaps” sure, if you want to fabulate freely with no real basis behind it. But in practice no, not for that reason. It's telling that ED hasn't tried to make training missions for AAR, because they have yet to implement the functionality that would make them worth-while. If they did, it would offer a number of benefits and would also allow for the creation of such missions, which would themselves be hugely beneficial.

 

Quote

The best practice is simply to spend the hours with the tanker.

No. That's just the most grindy, obstinate, and inefficient way of doing it. The only thing that makes it “best” is because it is the only alternative DCS is capable of delivering at the moment. It wins by virtue of a complete lack of competition. The instant such capabilities were implemented, that label would change from “best” to “dead last by an embarrassingly huge margin.”

 

Quote

They also know it’s an advanced skill and not something every player does or needs.

Kind of like with carrier landings you mean? That feature that they sat down and implemented helpers for because irrespective of what “every player” needs, it would help many of them and would open up the gameplay to more people who might otherwise not bother with it. If all they ever did was add things that “every player does or needs”, none of DCS would even exist.

 

  

32 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Those aren’t the only options. How about just don’t fly such long missions when those players are with you? Or spend some time teaching them AAR 

So when you say that those aren't the only options, what others are there? Because all you're offering here is something that isn't an option at all — it's just turning a blind eye to the problem — and the other is just the first option restated in a different way. I suppose we can therefore safely conclude that those are indeed the only options, seeing as how you can't think of any others.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Tippis

[shagrat]

12 hours ago, Exorcet said:

Yeah those are good ways of doing it:

 

Have it set as a trigger or something on a specific tanker

Have it as an extra radio option in the tanker menu since we have to contact the tanker anyway, but with this one maybe require a checkbox in the options for it to appear, like autorudder, so it's obvious that it's an assist.

 

Both of these allow easy AAR to coexist with the unassisted version. As for what easy AAR should do, I like having an autopilot because I could use it for mission testing, but that may not be the best teaching tool. For learning we could extend the range of the boom/basket, but have some kind of visual indication once your plane is outside of the normal range, like a flashing red light appears on screen. You'll still get fuel, but it would direct you to adjust to the correct position. The extended refuel radius could also be set in the ME so that it can be reduced over time as people improve.

That's actually the idea behind a helper (magnetic tether/adjustable contact box) or even assist. Even with an assist like auto startup it won't change anything other than what already happens when AI planes refuel at the tanker.

The assists can only affect the client, as it's not the server that tracks the fuel state of the client plane. You move in behind the tanker and the magnetic tether helps you to get contact, but it is the client PC that calculates the flight model etc. NOT a server Option.

So it changes exactly nothing for anyone else's experience...

[shagrat]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

But I’m pretty sure everyone here can ride a bicycle, right? Ok if you can do that you can AAR. Nothing magical about it, just practice. 

The point is, when we learned to ride a bicycle, we were in our teens, had plenty of time to practice and usually someone holding our hand and not just a book "How to ride a bike" and some videos of experienced cyclists showing off their mad skills.

Honestly the only reason I can see why some guys go way and beyond to prevent others from getting help with this has something to do with ego, as their is no logical argument why an assist/aid feature that does not affect anyone else's experience in anyway (you could not tell if it is used or not) is a bad thing.

[DaWu]

DCS is a hardcore sim and such assistence has nothing to do in DCS. If you want arcade flying the go to warthunder or so. Yes it requires practice and a couple of weeks ago I thought it’s impossible. Now I do it easily even on tanker banks. I just practiced. If someone does not practice then it’s their fault. DCS is not a game it’s a sim. If ED think they need to do it then leave it SP only. In MP it would be simply a cheat

[Tippis]

8 minutes ago, DaWu said:

DCS is a hardcore sim and such assistence has nothing to do in DCS.

ED says otherwise. Good luck convincing the developers that their stated intent for the game is not what the game is supposed to be…

 

8 minutes ago, DaWu said:

If you want arcade flying the go to warthunder or so.

No-one is asking for arcade flying, though, so that's not really a particularly topical suggestion, now is it?

 

8 minutes ago, DaWu said:

DCS is not a game it’s a sim. If ED think they need to do it then leave it SP only. In MP it would be simply a cheat

Actually, it's both. And the way DCS works, there really would be no good way of making it SP only, nor would it be a particularly good idea even it there was since that would rather defeat the purpose of having it to begin with.

[DaWu]

30 minutes ago, Tippis said:

ED says otherwise. Good luck convincing the developers that their stated intent for the game is not what the game is supposed to be…

 

No-one is asking for arcade flying, though, so that's not really a particularly topical suggestion, now is it?

 

Actually, it's both. And the way DCS works, there really would be no good way of making it SP only, nor would it be a particularly good idea even it there was since that would rather defeat the purpose of having it to begin with.

Asking for easy magical Auto AAR is the definition of arcade flying actually lol

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Here's a hint: Get yourself a Harrier, and don't come back here until you know how properly done AAR training mission looks like. A game can "hold your hand" with a properly made training mission.

Post a link to a video of it. I’d be curious to see what it’s like. I can only imagine a yellow square glowing over the probe extend switch and “now press space bar to continue”...

So just due to this one well done mission, can every player who owns the Harrier AAR? Somehow I think not. Not unless they practice. 

1 hour ago, shagrat said:

The point is, when we learned to ride a bicycle, we were in our teens,

Teens?! I was like the last kid on the block to learn and I was 7 

My point is about basic motor skills. Most of us all still have those enough for this game. If you think this is hard try sim racing. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by SharpeXB

[SharpeXB]

39 minutes ago, DaWu said:

Asking for easy magical Auto AAR is the definition of arcade flying actually lol

I cannot think of any game that literally plays itself for you because it’s too hard. Having adjustable difficulty levels, yes. But watching it play itself because you can’t? No. That form of entertainment is called a movie. 

[Fri13]

6 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I cannot think of any game that literally plays itself for you because it’s too hard. Having adjustable difficulty levels, yes. But watching it play itself because you can’t? No. That form of entertainment is called a movie. 

 

And if you would read the discussion (and not ignore people who argument you can't counter) you would know that discussion is about an assistance feature that requires player to actually still fly and operate the aircraft properly in the IAR envelope as it wouldn't be a "movie where you sit down like watching a Youtube video" (like you have argued from the begin as your point what players should do). 

 

 

[Tippis]

7 hours ago, DaWu said:

Asking for easy magical Auto AAR is the definition of arcade flying actually lol

Not even remotely, no.

 

7 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I cannot think of any game that literally plays itself for you because it’s too hard.

Good thing that no-one is suggesting anything that stupid. The only one who has mentioned it is you.

Or, well… when I say “no-one”, the suggestion of passively watching a video of the process comes close, but again that's on you.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Tippis

[draconus]

Imho it should not have a place in MP as it is about everyone to play by the same rules.

What OP does is blaming sim of not providing some fictional option instead of making anything at all to allow the elders play on even ground, ie. like making the mission shorter or letting them take off first on economic profile with less load and let them land first too. Knowing that such option may take years or never actually happen, relying on it is highly disrespectful for the elders that he tries to help.

Edited March 27, 2021 by draconus

[Buzzles]

7 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I cannot think of any game that literally plays itself for you because it’s too hard. Having adjustable difficulty levels, yes. But watching it play itself because you can’t? No. That form of entertainment is called a movie. 

I've been reading the thread but not contribuing bar my single post, and no-one but you has suggested hands off Auto AAR. The suggestions have all involved player interaction.