not planned Easy mode AAR

[Fri13]

Just now, ST0RM said:

Fri gave some examples of how auto AAR could work. On the flipside, how would it be implemented on servers? A special server with less restrictions? 

 

Please go and read this post again:

 

There is no "special server" requirement. There is no "splitting the community" or anything like that. It is configurable. 

These things has been already answered in the early phase of the whole thread. 

2 minutes ago, draconus said:

The OP could have made 5 minutes mission changes and let elders take off first and save the day superhero way. Instead he came to wishlist asking ED to do something and let the elders wait for years for a solution that may never come. 

 

Again you are not even understanding the topic or following it.

 

2 minutes ago, draconus said:

@Fri13 When someone has shaking hands or controller problems he also can't land, fly formation or aim unguided weapons. The AAR is his least worry.

 

That is untrue.

You just made a claim that IFR is exactly identical same as landing or aiming a unguided weapons or generic formation flying (I assume you don't mean to fly in "Blue Angels Style"). 

 

 

[Tippis]

14 minutes ago, draconus said:

The OP could have made 5 minutes mission changes and let elders take off first and save the day superhero way. Instead he came to wishlist asking ED to do something and let the elders wait for years for a solution that may never come. That's the disrespecful part, @Tippis

They are. They want to be able to do it even more, which this kind of solution would allow for. Read the OP again, a bit more closely, because you're reading a whole lot more malice  into it that just isn't there. It would also have a huge number of additional benefits to just about everyone, and there are zero downsides.

 

Asking that the developers accommodate more players is as far from disrespectful as it could be.

 

14 minutes ago, draconus said:

When someone has shaking hands or controller problems he also can't land, fly formation or aim unguided weapons.

All of those have various helper functions already, as well as ME tools that let the designer keep the mission design as is and simply compensate. And they don't require nearly the same amount of fine control to begin with.

 

I guess it only makes sense that when the tired old “this isn't what DCS is supposed to be” argument was demonstrated to be false, something else had to take its place. A bit of good old faux moral outrage and victim blaming is a delectable choice.

Still doesn't amount to an actual reason why it shouldn't happen, though.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Tippis

[Wrcknbckr]

OP's suggestion of a limited flying box with auto-refuel seems the easiest and fastest way to introduce a workaround. 

I think the main difference of opinion starts when all kinds of helper functions are suggested (magnets/tractor beams/skill-level based control systems) that are either not helpfull for learning, require large coding efforts, or are not in line with ED's way of thinking w.r.t. realism/fidelity.

[cfrag]

After reading 12 pages of messages I have come to the conclusion that this particular discussion boils down to: 

• There are a number of people who have identified an issue they have with a particular DCS feature, and propose a number of ways how this issue can be transparently alleviated without affecting other players.
• And then there are a number of people who assure everyone that they are "manly men" and offer everyone else the opportunity to compare their member's size.

 

-ch

[Wrcknbckr]

Oh I'm sure those "manly men" are willing to share tips and advice to those in need or even desperate, since they've been in that same position before...

[Fri13]

23 minutes ago, Wrcknbckr said:

OP's suggestion of a limited flying box with auto-refuel seems the easiest and fastest way to introduce a workaround. 

I think the main difference of opinion starts when all kinds of helper functions are suggested (magnets/tractor beams/skill-level based control systems) that are either not helpfull for learning, require large coding efforts, or are not in line with ED's way of thinking w.r.t. realism/fidelity.

 

Did you read what I wrote about the learning? My idea is exactly about assisting the player to learn, requiring player to play in his capabilities to be able to do it - with assist. 

What the opposition has argued against the whole idea is exactly that - that any assisting system would not be helpful and not require learning or training and just take away from "more important things" to do (they have not managed to explain what is more important thing to do). 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Wrcknbckr said:

Oh I'm sure those "manly men" are willing to share tips and advice to those in need or even desperate, since they've been in that same position before...

 

If they would have, then they would be asking the Easy Air Refueling as well here, not being against it with Nth excuse they can come up with (and lose argument time after time). 

 

[oldcrusty]

47 minutes ago, draconus said:

Not one of the "victims" came here to comment or asked for the option.

Guys just like to discuss for the sake of it.

The OP could have made 5 minutes mission changes and let elders take off first and save the day superhero way. Instead he came to wishlist asking ED to do something and let the elders wait for years for a solution that may never come. That's the disrespecful part, @Tippis

@Fri13 When someone has shaking hands or controller problems he also can't land, fly formation or aim unguided weapons. The AAR is his least worry.

 

Hey, looks like we're on the same channel...

 

Now, this is way OT but...  there are very 'manly' groups out there in RW... in some places.  The bar to join them is getting lower and lower... all right, lol.  

[Wrcknbckr]

51 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

 

Did you read what I wrote about the learning? My idea is exactly about assisting the player to learn, requiring player to play in his capabilities to be able to do it - with assist. 

What the opposition has argued against the whole idea is exactly that - that any assisting system would not be helpful and not require learning or training and just take away from "more important things" to do (they have not managed to explain what is more important thing to do). 

 

 

 

My idea of adequate learning AAR is best explained by an analogy with an athlete training for jumping a 2m high bar (or AAR). I don't think it makes sense to put a trampoline there (magnets/tractor-beam/adapted controls etc.). Sure he's able to jump the 2m... but not without the trampoline. He doesn't get a feel of what is needed. In the same way the player is deprived of the 'original' controls that he knows from his normal flying. More effective would be start with the bar at a lower height (formation flying). That way he can progress in his own time, according to his abilities and improve.

 

That said, I miss an intermediate in the training sessions between flying/weapon delivery on one side and AAR. AAR is a target that is too far set. Out of nowhere the player has to be able to position his aircraft within a 10x10 inch square. Clearly that calls for desperation at first. How about first do a training session devoted to formation flying. I think a lot of players have no idea how they wobble through the skies (at least I did). Flying in formation you get to know your abilities to position the aircraft at will - without having to worry about fuel (the stress factor). Meanwhile you adapt your axis curves to you liking (do all players know this can be done?). This alone presents a perfect training environment, no additional programming effort on ED side needed (apart from creating a formation flying session).

 

I have flown the Harrier AAR training session and couldn't get a transfer completed - that was after completing >50 successful AARs in a self created training mission, so this training session I think is not really the easiest for a beginner and could be improved for that purpose...

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Wrcknbckr

[oldcrusty]

Another helpful tool would be ATTH a/p mode engaged once in pre-contact. Especially in level flight. It dampens PIO's pretty good. Although the way it works here is not as good as FPAH in 'other' sim.

As Wrcknbckr mentioned, playing with the curves is absolutely necessary.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Gripes323

[sirrah]

Guys guys!

 

I think you can stop the discussion now. I have found the answer:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2021 by sirrah

[SharpeXB]

36 minutes ago, Wrcknbckr said:

How about first do a training session devoted to formation flying. I think a lot of players have no idea how they wobble through the skies (at least I did). Flying in formation you get to know your abilities to position the aircraft at will - without having to worry about fuel (the stress factor). Meanwhile you adapt your axis curves to you liking (do all players know this can be done?). This alone presents a perfect training environment, no additional programming effort on ED side needed (apart from creating a formation flying session).

This. Yeah the basic training you need for AAR isn’t tractor beams, colored rectangles etc. it’s formation flying. What would be really beneficial in DCS would simply be scenarios where you aren’t always the flight lead. The sim always sets you up as the leader which gives you no opportunity to develop this skill over the course of normal gameplay. A typical “career mode” would have you starting as a junior rank and moving up. That’s a natural and realistic way to acquired the skill. Hopefully the upcoming Dynamic Campaign does exactly this. 

[Fri13]

43 minutes ago, Wrcknbckr said:

My idea of adequate learning AAR is best explained by an analogy with an athlete training for jumping a 2m high bar (or AAR). I

 

And analogy goes wrong...

43 minutes ago, Wrcknbckr said:

don't think it makes sense to put a trampoline there (magnets/tractor-beam/adapted controls etc.). Sure he's able to jump the 2m... but not without the trampoline.

 

And if you would read my suggestion, there wouldn't be a "trampoline". It would fully require player attention, learning the procedure, knowing how to get to pre-contact, how to approach, how to maintain formation, control speed etc. 

 

43 minutes ago, Wrcknbckr said:

He doesn't get a feel of what is needed.

 

Please go read the ideas and how to implement them and leave the analogies out.

 

43 minutes ago, Wrcknbckr said:

In the same way the player is deprived of the 'original' controls that he knows from his normal flying. More effective would be start with the bar at a lower height (formation flying). That way he can progress in his own time, according to his abilities and improve.

 

How difficult it is to understand that they can't manage it, no matter do they put there 10 hours or 1000 hours! 

They require assistance!

 

It is not about will, about time, about skill etc. It is about simply NOT ABLE TO DO IT. Yet they want to do it. They have tried, they have tried again, and again and again... 

No one of you who is arguing against this do not get the fact that if they do not succeed in it even if they would spent their lifetime trying, then it means that they do not succeed in it and they need assistance!

 

Different people have a skill cap at different things. They can have various reasons why they can not perform something. Just repeating to the nauseam "They can do it if they just do some training" doesn't change that fact. 

 

Sorry, but "Anybody can do it if they just put enough effort to it" is completely false argument in life.

DCS World is a game primarily, not a real world. It is a simulator based to real world, but it is still a game. And games, are there to have fun.

 

This wish is not going to take anything away from anyone. It is not "lowering the height".

Anyone who want to have maximum challenge etc, can just avoid enabling the assistance feature.

But before even having that maximum real challenge, Eagle Dynamics would need to actually improve a lot that air refueling basket physics.... 

 

 

[Tippis]

38 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

This. Yeah the basic training you need for AAR isn’t tractor beams, colored rectangles etc. it’s formation flying.

…where tractor beams, coloured rectangles etc. would help with the training. Shocking, I know.

 

Quote

What would be really beneficial in DCS would simply be scenarios where you aren’t always the flight lead.

That wouldn't affect anything in the slightest. I guess we've reached the stage where you're truly desperate and just try to hijack and derail the conversation completely by going entirely off-topic. It was only a matter of time, I suppose. And of course, true to form, you demonstrate your deep knowledge of and familiary with DCS by asking for something that already exists.

 

  

58 minutes ago, Gripes323 said:

Another helpful tool would be ATTH a/p mode engaged once in pre-contact.

Of course, isn't actually possible in a whole bunch of aircraft…

Edited March 27, 2021 by Tippis

[oldcrusty]

18 minutes ago, Tippis said:

…where tractor beams, coloured rectangles etc. would help with the training. Shocking, I know.

 

That wouldn't affect anything in the slightest. I guess we've reached the stage where you're truly desperate and just try to hijack and derail the conversation completely by going entirely off-topic. It was only a matter of time, I suppose. And of course, true to form, you demonstrate your deep knowledge of and familiary with DCS by asking for something that already exists.

 

  

Of course, isn't actually possible in a whole bunch of aircraft…

 

 

Darn... I'm so used to living in the Hornet forums I forgot there are other jets out there.

[Tippis]

2 minutes ago, Gripes323 said:

 

Darn... I'm so used to living in the Hornet forums I forgot there are other jets out there.

Yes, the Hornet is just all-around easy mode (other than the AG weapon user interface where three decades of bolt-on tech has made things… messy ), but on the other hand, that also makes it a pretty good starter plane.

[oldcrusty]

14 minutes ago, Tippis said:

Yes, the Hornet is just all-around easy mode (other than the AG weapon user interface where three decades of bolt-on tech has made things… messy ), but on the other hand, that also makes it a pretty good starter plane.

 

Yeah, after years of simming with other airframes I finally settled on the easiest one. Hey all the 'seniors' (70+)... come on over to Hornets!  Otherwise, your boss will put you in the back seat of Tomcats

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

I’m just going to say this is a WISH LIST. Not a shit on somebody’s wishes list. 
If you have a wish, please post it. If you disagree with somebody’s wish, suck an egg and start your own post!

[oldcrusty]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Big.Biggs said:

I’m just going to say this is a WISH LIST. Not a shit on somebody’s wishes list. 
If you have a wish, please post it. If you disagree with somebody’s wish, suck an egg and start your own post!

[oldcrusty]

Time to head back to Hornet's board.

Hey OP, not to worry, the devs were aware of this wish before this thread started and bloomed.

[Mars Exulte]

On 3/21/2021 at 7:30 PM, Desert Fox said:

This again O.o (enjoy reading 11 pages of nonsense).

 

  Truly, thou wert a prophet, I did not fully appreciate this at the time.

[Tippis]

1 hour ago, Desert Fox said:

If only you knew how bad things really are

It wouldn't be so bad if the nay-sayers had something resembling an argument to offer rather than the infinite amount of nonsense you predicted. But they don't, so they just heap it on in the vain hope that petulant foot-stomping and crying and moaning and being abusive will somehow work as a substitute for their failure to articulate why something beneficial to the game must under no circumstances happen.

[shagrat]

On 3/27/2021 at 11:15 AM, Jackjack171 said:

You speak of fallacies a lot. It only seems to be as such when you decide it is. The same could be said about your points. Careful!

Either way, the function for unlimited fuel is there. As for what people are asking for, I'll say this again, help was not what the OP was asking for. I'm all for a training mission or an aid. Knock yourself out! The OP's language sounded a lot like "do it for me". 

And I wouldn't burn down anyone's shed unless the jack wagon had a solid plan!

 

Can we please stop the "Unlimited fuel is the solution" argument. It has been explained half a dozen times, why that is even worse and killing Immersion and realism.

Unlimited fuel equals:

No fuel management

No change to weight/flight model

No possibility to train AAR if you start with full tanks

 

That's why people don't use unlimited fuel, but want an assistance option to help getting into the basket and station keeping/disconnect.

Even an automated communication would tremendously help, so you could focus on flying and not moving your hand(s) between HOTAS and Keyboard. Pilots IRL don't need a f...ing keyboard to talk to the tanker... And make the tanker more talkative and the boom operator do his job... If we keep at this unrealistic flying "around the boom" instead of the operator moving it aside, let me slide in position, I want at least a little help.

Or for the A-10 IRL the boom operator moves the boom in position long before you fly in the box, so it gives you a reference by keeping the boom tip on the tankers nose... Then you just keep climbing and creeping forward into position. In DCS you struggle into the box, then the operator tries to impale you with the boom. Add no peripheral vision, no feeling of acceleration or decelaration, no direct communication to the tanker and try to call that shitshow "realism".

Sorry, but I need it managable and a bit adjustable to cope for the sims shortcomings, not way harder than in real life.

Edited March 28, 2021 by shagrat
Typos

[shagrat]

22 hours ago, ST0RM said:

Yes, there I'd make a concession.

Fri gave some examples of how auto AAR could work. On the flipside, how would it be implemented on servers? A special server with less restrictions? 

To each their own. Back to my thing. 

As posted also multiple times: it would be implemented on servers the same way auto startup, auto rudder or rudder assist is implemented for clients or AI is doing refueling on the server.

You wouldn't even know it is assisted. The guy just refuels and it is easier for him, while you watch and wonder " is he that good, or does he use assistence?".

[Gronank]

This thread is in my estimation completely off the rails.

 

I am sympathetic towards anyone who struggles with AAR and become excluded because of it, but asking for convoluted helper mechanics is the wrong way to go.

 

A far more practical solution would be to simply add a method in the script API to set fuel state on aircraft. Then mission designers get to choose how to deal with players who struggle. Maybe prompt "You've been loitering around this tanker for 5 minutes and are still running on fumes, do you wish to have your tanks filled so you get on with things", or something else, depending on preference.

 

There are only upsides

• Empowers mission designers to create the experiences they want for all kinds of players
• There's still a point in learning AAR
• Easy to implement (There are likely reasons it is not trivial, but it is most certainly simpler than building "automagically fly the plane" functionality for every module with AAR capability)

Yeah, if you can't refuel, you won't see your plane refuel. But really, that experience isn't worth much when it isn't earned and you still get to participate.

[oldcrusty]

1 hour ago, shagrat said:

As posted also multiple times: it would be implemented on servers the same way auto startup, auto rudder or rudder assist is implemented for clients or AI is doing refueling on the server.

You wouldn't even know it is assisted. The guy just refuels and it is easier for him, while you watch and wonder " is he that good, or does he use assistence?".

 

.... and everyone feels good and equal and ... ready to go kill some bad guys together. Sounds awesome.

 

Now, didn't I say I was heading back to Hornet forums?!  what the... 

runs before mr. biggs shows up