wip AI Antons being massacred by AI Spitfires.

[Cpt. Weber]

I don't know if that is how it is supposed to be for good or not, but as it is right now, any missions which include dogfighting in bigger groups (furballs) agaist Spits are unplayable.

Ex. instant action mission (furball vs. Spitfires) ends up with all the Antons killed, for no losses for the Spits. 

Same goes for the campaign, the Antons are unable to kill anything, I just saw even one Anton fly backwards (yes! Tail first!) to the ground and crash.

The result is me alone scoring a kill or two and then being overwhelmed, or just generally fighting alone against a swarm.

Edited April 21, 2021 by Cpt. Weber
spelling

[LeCuvier]

I don't see how a swarm of Antons would survive a furball situation against Spitfires. In a furball you cannot surprise the enemy. The Anton does not turn too well while the Spit is the turning fight champion. The Anton does not have the speed/acceleration of the Dora, so it cannot easily escape a Spit on its tail. Plus, the AI have a tendency to go into turning fights even when that's to their disadvantage (that's why I can defeat an AI MiG-21 with my Bf-109K). A furball mission with Antons vs Spits is nonsense.

Edited April 22, 2021 by LeCuvier

[grafspee]

Yes AI logic is just meh.

Instead of split in to 2 ship elements, wingman trying to cover lead while making attack, or help to shake off enemy from your "6", AI just enter chaotic furball and in that situation best turning aircraft will win always.

 

[Cpt. Weber]

6 hours ago, grafspee said:

Yes AI logic is just meh.

Instead of split in to 2 ship elements, wingman trying to cover lead while making attack, or help to shake off enemy from your "6", AI just enter chaotic furball and in that situation best turning aircraft will win always.

 

Exactly this, and that's what my biggest problem is right now. 

Even if you as a player try to fly the Anton as it is supposed to be flown against the Spits for ex. (BnZ, hit and run etc.), you are completely alone in this = after the first attack, succesful or not, there will always be some Spits chasing after you and not giving up. Meanwhile the rest of your Schwarm is being slaughtered in a pointless turn fight. Nobody is going to help you, no matter what orders you will issue to the AI (if they think, they are being engaged, they will just respond UNABLE). 

 

This kills any enjoyment I may have from an otherwise wondeful campaign like Horrido!, because all I can hope for, when the AI Spits arrive, is to try to hit some of them which do not happen to turn, and the moment I'll notice them engage the rest of my flight, to run home, or at least for so long, to lose the Spit sitting there on my tail...

 

I don't even want to start with the other issues of AI Spits flight model, with them doing some strange vertical climb-hammerhead-like-while-hanging-on-the-prop-manouvers and amazing aim at longer distances.

[LeCuvier]

The only thing that works for me is to play the "game of chicken": fly head-on towards the Spit that's coming for me, keep her well centered in my crosshairs and pull the trigger as soon as she seems to be in range. It's better to start firing early; because if I shoot a tenth of a second later she will fire at me and my Anton will be a blazing wreck. And of course I have to pull up before this becomes a ramming attack. I trained this and now can kill a "Veteran" AI this way most of the time. If it didn't work the first time, I continue flying straight at full throttle and put some distance between the pursuing spit and myself, then turn around and try again. It works relatively well due to the amazing firepower of the Anton. I tend to get some hits but the Spit is crippled before the Anton is badly damaged.

[amazingme]

AI can be tricked in many ways.. e.g.:

https://youtu.be/URLNOdK06BI

[Cpt. Weber]

23 hours ago, amazingme said:

AI can be tricked in many ways.. e.g.:

https://youtu.be/URLNOdK06BI

 

On 4/24/2021 at 12:27 PM, LeCuvier said:

The only thing that works for me is to play the "game of chicken": fly head-on towards the Spit that's coming for me, keep her well centered in my crosshairs and pull the trigger as soon as she seems to be in range. It's better to start firing early; because if I shoot a tenth of a second later she will fire at me and my Anton will be a blazing wreck. And of course I have to pull up before this becomes a ramming attack. I trained this and now can kill a "Veteran" AI this way most of the time. If it didn't work the first time, I continue flying straight at full throttle and put some distance between the pursuing spit and myself, then turn around and try again. It works relatively well due to the amazing firepower of the Anton. I tend to get some hits but the Spit is crippled before the Anton is badly damaged.

 

Thanks for your input guys, but what you're describing refers to 1v1 situations, not the problem mentioned in this thread.

We're talking multiple Antons vs. multiple Spits situations, which happen in SP campaigns and missions.

After first pass, none of the tactics you mentioned or showed above is viable anymore, as there will be another Spit(s) chasing after you.

Any manouver which will make you slower than them and/or lets them approach in-range of their guns is game over for you.

[3WA]

Chalk up another "the AI sucks" thread.  Yeah, it sucks.

[StevanJ]

On 4/21/2021 at 9:46 PM, Cpt. Weber said:

I don't know if that is how it is supposed to be for good or not, but as it is right now, any missions which include dogfighting in bigger groups (furballs) agaist Spits are unplayable.

Ex. instant action mission (furball vs. Spitfires) ends up with all the Antons killed, for no losses for the Spits. 

Same goes for the campaign, the Antons are unable to kill anything, I just saw even one Anton fly backwards (yes! Tail first!) to the ground and crash.

The result is me alone scoring a kill or two and then being overwhelmed, or just generally fighting alone against a swarm.

 

 

How do you think the AI should act?

[Cpt. Weber]

On 4/26/2021 at 10:38 AM, StevanJ said:

 

How do you think the AI should act?

It should avoid turn fights, attempt BnZ and slashing attacks, expose the enemy sitting on his tail to wingman fire etc. Generally fighting more the way the Anton was supposed to be flown.

[NineLine]

On 4/25/2021 at 11:49 PM, 3WA said:

Chalk up another "the AI sucks" thread.  Yeah, it sucks.

Very helpful, in the future if you don't have anything helpful to say, or information to add to the report, please don't post.

 

I would argue that the Spitfire vs Anton, all things equal, would probably in most cases mop the floor with the A-8, that said, we continue to work on AI decision making to improve their combat skills and ability to work together.

[Exorcet]

4 hours ago, NineLine said:

Very helpful, in the future if you don't have anything helpful to say, or information to add to the report, please don't post.

 

I would argue that the Spitfire vs Anton, all things equal, would probably in most cases mop the floor with the A-8, that said, we continue to work on AI decision making to improve their combat skills and ability to work together.

I haven't actually tested the 2.7 WWII AI improvements yet, but does it take numbers into account? If not perhaps that could be an improvement. Example, a fight starts off 10 v 10, but then quickly becomes a 5 v 10. Does the AI change behavior in that case (depending on the ability to communicate)? Perhaps something like this could be added so the AI detects when it's "losing" and either changes tactics or retreats.

[cro_mig_21]

+1, Brilliant idea. It was decisive IRL, offense vs defense

[Cpt. Weber]

On 5/8/2021 at 12:34 AM, NineLine said:

Very helpful, in the future if you don't have anything helpful to say, or information to add to the report, please don't post.

 

I would argue that the Spitfire vs Anton, all things equal, would probably in most cases mop the floor with the A-8, that said, we continue to work on AI decision making to improve their combat skills and ability to work together.

All things equal, agreed.

But I'm talking about SP experience like the Horrido campaign here.

Watching the whole numerically superior Anton flight dying to the scrambling Spitfires while being unable to down even one of them (I'm taking only my AI allies into account), with proper orders issued, seems to be broken. One of the AI Antons stalled so badly he flew backwards, tail first, to the ground. I've made a big mistake not saving the track...

There seems to be more issues and changes (compared how the AI Antons flew couple weeks ago) than only the AI that come into play here.

[NineLine]

Yes, many times the AI will enter into a fight with an opponent that isn't advantageous to them, this is something that isn't easy to solve (so many variables) but we are working on it.

[Exorcet]

On 5/9/2021 at 12:36 AM, NineLine said:

Yes, many times the AI will enter into a fight with an opponent that isn't advantageous to them, this is something that isn't easy to solve (so many variables) but we are working on it.

Definitely, this will probably be one of the biggest tasks for ED due to the difficulty of getting human like behavior out of an AI. That said I finally did test the new AI out in a moderate size engagement and I like what I saw compared to previous versions. It felt a lot more natural, with less endless looping or just instantly diving for the deck in every fight. With some more AI tweaking I think all we'll need in the future is a replacement for the current AI flight model.