Vive Pro 2

[dburne]

9 minutes ago, Supmua said:

Some tips for people who don't get good performance on theirs.  Check your steamvr.vrsettings file (in \Steam\config\) and make sure there is no funny settings going on that might screw up your performance.  Yes I found evidence of SteamVR taking GPU speed into account for assigning pixel rendering resolution in terms of percentage.  It takes values of different GPU speed test (gpuSpeed0 and gpuSpeed1 in that file) and assigns an arbitrary number (gpuSpeedHorsepower) which seems to be the avg power of the two, and this is why people are getting different res at 100% setting.  It still had my preferred refresh rate of 80 Hz, which is not possible with Vive Pro 2 so I had to manually change that to 90.  There might be some other setting lines that are left over from your old headset which may not be compatible with the Vive Pro 2.  I also have a feeling that SteamVR might not yet fully support the Vive Pro 2.

 

However, I've been having incredibly smooth gameplay with DCS and MSFS.  Once correctly tuned to the power of your system, i.e. not dropping below 1:2 reprojection (usually by downsampling resolution until you get there), the experience is better than the Index due to much better screen.

 

 

I would think Steam VR will be continuing to update their beta branch with some things pertinent to the new Vive Pro 2.

Now if we could just get HTC to let Steam VR handle the dang motion smoothing!

It amazes me with how long and how good Steam VR has done the Motion Smoothing, that HTC decided to handle it for themselves with the new VP2. Why re-invent something that was already there and working well with Steam VR?

 

I think I will post that question tomorrow over on Vive's tech support forum. It can be one of the two posts that I am allowed to make in a 24 hour period over there...

Edited June 8, 2021 by dburne

[Supmua]

6 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

I would think Steam VR will be continuing to update their beta branch with some things pertinent to the new Vive Pro 2.

Now if we could just get HTC to let Steam VR handle the dang motion smoothing!

 

 

That would be ideal, both sides need to talk to each other.  At present, though, Vive's motion compensation at 1:2 reprojection is mostly the same as SteamVR's motion smoothing if your setup can maintain that kind of performance which requires a top end GPU--and by that I mean RTX 3080 and up (won't be a problem with your 3090 setup).

Edited June 8, 2021 by Supmua

[dburne]

1 hour ago, Supmua said:

 

That would be ideal, both sides need to talk to each other.  At present, though, Vive's motion compensation at 1:2 reprojection is mostly the same as SteamVR's motion smoothing if your setup can maintain that kind of performance which requires a top end GPU--and by that I mean RTX 3080 and up (won't be a problem with your 3090 setup).

 

 

Good to hear thanks. I am quite happy with Steam VR's Motion Smoothing with my G2, if VP2 can handle it comparably I will be happy.

Edited June 8, 2021 by dburne

[Headwarp]

7 hours ago, Supmua said:

Some tips for people who don't get good performance on theirs.  Check your steamvr.vrsettings file (in \Steam\config\) and make sure there is no funny settings going on that might screw up your performance.  I found evidence of SteamVR taking GPU speed into account for assigning pixel rendering resolution in terms of percentage.  It takes values of different GPU speed test (gpuSpeed0 and gpuSpeed1 in that file) and assigns an arbitrary number (gpuSpeedHorsepower) which seems to be the avg power of the two, and this is why people are getting different res at 100% setting.  It still had my preferred refresh rate of 80 Hz, which is not possible with Vive Pro 2 so I had to manually change that to 90.  There might be some other setting lines that are left over from your old headset which may not be compatible with the Vive Pro 2 and should be adjusted or deleted.  I also have a feeling that SteamVR might not yet fully support the Vive Pro 2.

 

However, despite all this I've been having incredibly smooth gameplay with DCS and MSFS.  Once correctly tuned to the power of your system, i.e. not dropping below 1:2 reprojection (usually by downsampling resolution until you get there), the experience is better than the Index due to much better screen (HFOV, clarity, lack of SDE, coloration, black level, etc).

 

 

I would still imagine that the items mentioned (GpuSpeed and Horsepower) is for use with the automatic render resolution setting in SteamVR which is currently set to disabled on my end, as well as Vive Consoles own automatic settings.  Being disabled.   I wouldn't go so far as to say "This is why this is happening".    It shouldn't be.   If it is some kind of "feature" it's a hinderance not a boon.  My guess is still that something is broken and needs fixing.  All the information in my vrsettings file points to the Vive pro 2. It shows the correct resolution iin there as well. .   In fact I'm almost certain that the "GpuSpeed" section relates to steamvr's auto scaling feature as looking at it  when enabled it always reverts to 150%SS on my system regardless of which headset I'm using and that's what the "render target scale" is set to (1.5=150%) and determined by the GpuSpeed0 and Gpu speed Horsepower number.  

 

"GpuSpeed" : {
      "gpuSpeed0" : 1941,
      "gpuSpeedCount" : 1,
      "gpuSpeedDriver" : "466.63",
      "gpuSpeedHorsepower" : 1941,
      "gpuSpeedRenderTargetScale" : 1.5,
      "gpuSpeedVendor" : "NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 Ti",
      "gpuSpeedVersion" : 2
   },

 

 

It's not a matter of "my framerate is tanking I'm getting bad performance."   I get no difference between motion compensation on/off  I can't get consistent resolutions reported steamVR and frankly I don't know if it's really rendering at the resolution it's stating or not.  This is how I have been measuring VR performance and fine tuning my system for a long time now.  Currently I can only look at GPU usage as a capped framerate tells me nothing about how my system is actually performing.   I believe I will start examining cpu/gpu usage however to see if it's staying consistent in DCSW between SteamVR restarts.  That could tell me whether or not SteamVR is just lying.  

 

 The reported resolution at performance mode which according to vive console is 1224x1224 per eye, but SteamVR is showing similar resolutions between performance and extreme mode @100%.  Also my vrsettings file has nothing about refresh rate I can see, but the resolution is at least listed correctly in vrsettings.  

 

},
   "driver_viveVR" : {
      "lastDisplayHeight" : 2448,
      "lastDisplayWidth" : 4896

 

Not trying to put down your experience there but.. still smells like a bug.  YES.. SteamVR has automatic resolution settings that are supposed to be dependent on your hardware.  But it's a setting that can be disabled, or at least we're supposed to be able to.  It is the "render resolution" setting on the General page of the SteamVR settings.  If set to custom, that should disable all automatic scaling on steamVR's end.  Most of us have probably had it turned off since day 1 I'd imagine.  Early articles on the feature I've read cover that as well.    WMR+SteamVR doesn't behave this way, that's for certain.   When turned on Automatic scaling will bump the SS slider up.. but it reports the same number if I were to set it to custom and choose the same percentage.   Similar to how 100% SS in the Odyssey was always the same resolution. 

 

The automatic setting in steamVR also decided my 980Ti could handle 150% SS as a baseline for VR before I finally bought the 2080TI.  I was barely getting away with native resolution in the Odyssey with the 980ti in DCSW.  Good thing it isn't a forced setting.  

Edited June 9, 2021 by Headwarp
Proofreading

[Full Refund]

FWIW my 24 hour experience with the Vive Pro 2 was frustrating but ended in success.  I was contemplating returning it but now find most of the issues resolved.   Aside from updates and settings I found that a precise and very snug fit is necessary to get the best image.  I’ve played DCS on a Rift CV1, Reverb G1, Index, and Quest 2.  
 

The Vive Pro 2 has (IMHO) the best resolution and a great FOV.  In every other respect I’d say the Valve Index is superior.  Since I pretty much only play DCS and love a sharp image I will stick with the new Vive.  When you’re in the sweet spot it is near monitor quality with zero screen door.
 

Speaking of that sweet spot.   Wow did I have to fiddle-f*** around to get that picture right.  Early issues were weird IPD blur, a tiny sweet spot, and glare.  A few times something seemed to suddenly choke the GPU (a 3080).  Restarting SteamVR fixed that but I still don’t know what is causing it.  I also encountered really jittery tracking (that was nearly unplayable) until I closed the curtains.  Yep, the curtains.  Other issues were largely solved by fit.  In contrast, the Index had none of these problems.  It just worked.
 

For frame rate I find I’m getting 10-15 FPS less than I did on the Index.  Just going off the DCS in game counter for that estimate.  Still early days so maybe that can be improved. 
 

All-in-all it’s a little disappointing because I was hoping be blown away right out of the gate.  But in the end I am very happy with the picture and satisfied with performance.

 

EDIT:  My experiments with Vive Motion Smoothing have been unsat so far.  Frame rate improves but I get these odd visual artifacts like a bit of blurry instruments or scenery.  So I have it off for now.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Full Refund

[SneakyBastd]

My VP2 arrives in a day or two. What default resolution should it show in SteamVR when rendering? 4896x2448?

[Headwarp]

12 minutes ago, SneakyBastd said:

My VP2 arrives in a day or two. What default resolution should it show in SteamVR when rendering? 4896x2448?

 

I couldn't tell you.  I get a different number every time.    2488x2448  pixels per eye is native..    SteamVR has never reported the exact native resolution of a headset, but this is the first time I've encountered the resolution reported by SteamVR at a given percentage changing with every restart.  My only other experience being WMR.  Hopefully HTC doesn't take too long to fix things.  Or valve... whoever's software is at fault. 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Headwarp

[Headwarp]

I don't think SteamVR is reporting Vive Pro 2 resolutions correctly, on my rig at least, and it's rendering at higher resolutions than what is being reported. I mean.. that doesn't identify if it's Vive Console or SteamVR at fault but.   Prior to getting my Vive Pro 2 I was running the Odyssey at resolutions that equate to like 5.9m pixels per eye.   I was maintaining my 60fps under those circumstances, or close enough to it.

 

With steamVR reporting 2108x2108 per eye in the Pro 2, which is only 4.4m pixels per eye I was dropping down to like 40fps in the other sim  

 

 

I uninstalled my WMR software and can't give the exact resolution.. but 5.9m pixels per eye  is way higher than the reported 1632x1632 when I turned the SS slider down which is 2.6m pixels per eye yet I was still seeing a short occasional bit of red on the GPU graph.  Though the Ultra setting at 90hz seems to be reporting closer to what it should be, I'm still not sure it's correct. 

 

While the steamVR resolution being reported can not possibly be correct and still make sense to me  especially in the 120hz modes, the SS slider does in fact affect resolution.. so it might be that the percentage at least relates to the native resolution of the vive even if steamVR is reporting that resolution incorrectly. 

 

I mean.. I'd say my sweetspot is probably around 5.2-5.5m pixels per eye.  The problem is, I have no idea how many pixels I'm actually rendering in the Pro 2. 

 

I'm at odds with motion compensation still.  I get there will be artifacting and aliasing issues with it on.   I almost thought the double vision was due to my framerate dropping too low.. but chasing WW2 warbird in my other sim with the headset set to 90hz I would be looking at a clearly identifiable 109 one moment and the next it would be like I was drunk and seeing two of them, flashing and blurring and I never exceeded 16.7 frametime, in otherwords my system was not struggling to run at 45fps @90hz

 

My last experience with WMR motion reprojection had artifacting and wings may flap.. but none of the double vision.  Not that I spent much time with it, as 60hz with no reprojection was an awesome experience as long as I was close to or maintaining 60fps. 

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Headwarp

[Supmua]

6 hours ago, SneakyBastd said:

My VP2 arrives in a day or two. What default resolution should it show in SteamVR when rendering? 4896x2448?

The native screen res is 2448x2448 per panel. For a SteamVR headset to get optimal image it needs to render 1.4x of that res (imagine wrapping a rectangular image around your visual field some parts are going to be stretched and distorted and lose the clarity and higher res is needed to maintain that clarity).
 

So, if you want the top quality image out of the Vive Pro 2 the setting should be 3427x3427 (ignore the % as it varies among GPUs). However, you will not get good performance in DCS at that setting even with top end GPU. 

What I’m doing with DCS is downsample res to maintain >45 fps (frametime <22.2 ms) for 90Hz mode, this minimizes motion artifacts and ensure smooth gameplay. For me it’s around 2500x2500, this is not what the panel can achieve in absolute clarity but just what my current setup is capable of.  The image quality is still superior to my Index at that setting, and I typically run my Index >3K in vertical res albeit in 80 Hz mode (remember Index's native panel res is much lower at 1440x1600).
 

You can also reduce DCS graphics settings (shadows, visual distance, clouds, AA, etc.) in order to be able to increase that res while maintaining the same fps. 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Supmua

[dburne]

According to Fed Ex tracking this morning my VP2 will not be arriving until tomorrow.

[SneakyBastd]

Thanks guys. I'll let you know what res it ends up running at and what kind of fps I get with 3080.

 

I get plenty of fps with my 5k+ on max FoV running 1.25 supersampling and MSAA 2x. Hoping I can do without MSAA and supersampling due to the higher res panels, and that it won't be much worse performance wise. Fingers crossed!

[A2597]

Gah...my package hasn't moved from the FedEx location in Indiana for almost 24 hours... c'mon FedEx! 

[dburne]

16 minutes ago, A2597 said:

Gah...my package hasn't moved from the FedEx location in Indiana for almost 24 hours... c'mon FedEx! 

 

Yep same has happened to me. My two day shipping is turning into three days now.

Edit: Actually just checked, mine shows it departed there at 2:57 am this morning but no activity since. Strange.

Edited June 9, 2021 by dburne

[A2597]

My Vive Trackers literally departed Indiana...and were delivered directly from that facility. Never arrived at the local FedEx, it's like they direct delivered from Indiana two states away...

[dburne]

2 minutes ago, A2597 said:

My Vive Trackers literally departed Indiana...and were delivered directly from that facility. Never arrived at the local FedEx, it's like they direct delivered from Indiana two states away...

 

Wow that is interesting.

[A2597]

mine finally left Indiana, hopefully arrives tomorrow!

 

Little sad since tonight is my Game Night...

[dburne]

34 minutes ago, A2597 said:

mine finally left Indiana, hopefully arrives tomorrow!

 

Little sad since tonight is my Game Night...

 

Perhaps tomorrow will be a very good day for both of us.

[Supmua]

3 hours ago, SneakyBastd said:

Thanks guys. I'll let you know what res it ends up running at and what kind of fps I get with 3080.

 

I get plenty of fps with my 5k+ on max FoV running 1.25 supersampling and MSAA 2x. Hoping I can do without MSAA and supersampling due to the higher res panels, and that it won't be much worse performance wise. Fingers crossed!

 

If you know how to squeeze the performance out of the Pimax then you shouldn't have any issue here.  I still think MSAA is mandatory though, too much shimmering without it.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Supmua

[dburne]

5 minutes ago, Supmua said:

 

If you know how to squeeze the performance out of the Pimax then you shouldn't have any issue here.  I still think MSAA is mandatory though, too much shimmering without it.

 

 

At least in my Reverb G2 - at 100% Steam VR (3172x3100) I find I can do without MSAA.

Will be interesting to see if I feel the same with the new Vive Pro 2.

[Baldrick33]

Doing some simple maths for my simple mind I kind of thought the VP2 at 2448x2448 per eye with a FOV of 10-15% more than my G1 at 2106x2106 per eye would yield a similar quality image with similar performance. Sadly this hasn't worked out. As others have reported the VP2 sits somewhere between the G1/G2 and the Index, in my experience it falls well short of the G1 quality wise and trying to get close with bumping up supersampling just cripples the performance.

 

For my head the VP2 doesn't fit well, after hours of adjusting. the standard faceplate has gaps cut in (for glasses?) which allow light in and reflect parts of your room onto the image. I tried various VR covers eventually stuffing in material between the gaps between my head and the cover to stop light getting in. It kind of worked but I found the headset hot and uncomfortable after a short stint.

 

I then had the issue with grey outs which in fairness I have had with every base station setup - Pimax & Index - so I guess this is an EMI issue my end.

 

My G1 is now out of warranty and it has not been very reliable (I am on the fourth headset under warranty) so I was looking for a solid replacement and hoped this would be it. Sadly not and I am returning it.

 

VR is a very personal thing, I can see that some will prefer the colours and FOV, the base station tracking and maybe it will fit their head perfectly but not for me.

[Full Refund]

Baldrick33 try the Index.  It’s not as high resolution as the Reverb but it works really well and you don’t have the wonky HP tech or WMR to deal with.  I loved my Reverb’s clarity but it was a PITA otherwise. 
 

I decided I’m happy with my VP2 (probably) but I could totally stick with the Index.  It works well for DCS and everything seems well designed. There’s just the slightest screen door effect with it. 
 

Oh and for everyone dealing with FedEx I feel your pain.  They said it would come on Saturday. Then Sunday. Then Monday.  I finally got it Tuesday.  I’m not sure why they even try to estimate a delivery date!

[Baldrick33]

11 minutes ago, Full Refund said:

Baldrick33 try the Index.  It’s not as high resolution as the Reverb but it works really well and you don’t have the wonky HP tech or WMR to deal with.  I loved my Reverb’s clarity but it was a PITA otherwise.

I have and I thought it was the best made headset and the closest at being good at everything of all the ones I have tried. Ultimately the image clarity of the Reverb won me over, most especially in iRacing which is my other favourite sim, the Index suffers from some image alignment issue with it which quickly becomes tiring. I was really hoping the Vive Pro 2 would be like an Index with better clarity. I guess I will have to wait for an Index 2 and hope the G1 keeps going until then!

[Supmua]

C:\ProgramData\HTC\ViveSoftware\ViveVRRuntime

 

Another place you can snoop around.  It's interesting that Vive's motion compensation is called ASW in the htcvr.vrsettings file (just like Oculus's asynchronous spacewarp).

 

And if you check the vrcompositor log file you can get a hint of how thing works.  It clearly detects and measures your GPU speed on startup using 2880x1700 render target, also estimates the throughput afterward.  The default render width per eye is actually pretty high at 3884 pixels and this gets adjusted with lowered scale accordingly.  It also logs the fps changes with timestamps.  This is quite handy since it records any reprojection changes (90 to 45 to 30 to 22 to 18 fps).  So if you get jelly like artifacts in a game, chances are your fps is below 45 since Vive's motion compensation sucks at anything below 1:2, and you can use this log to double check that.

[dburne]

8 minutes ago, Supmua said:

C:\ProgramData\HTC\ViveSoftware\ViveVRRuntime

 

Another place you can snoop around.  It's interesting that Vive's motion compensation is called ASW in the htcvr.vrsettings file (just like Oculus's asynchronous spacewarp).

 

And if you check the vrcompositor log file you can get a hint of how thing works.  It clearly detects and measures your GPU speed on startup using 2880x1700 render target, also estimates the throughput afterward.  The default render width per eye is actually pretty high at 3884 pixels and this gets adjusted with lowered scale accordingly.  It also logs the fps changes with timestamps.  This is quite handy since it records any reprojection changes (90 to 45 to 30 to 22 to 18 fps).  So if you get jelly like artifacts in a game, chances are your fps is below 45 since Vive's motion compensation sucks at anything below 1:2, and you can use this log to double check that.

 

Nice info to know thanks!

[Headwarp]

1 hour ago, Supmua said:

C:\ProgramData\HTC\ViveSoftware\ViveVRRuntime

 

Another place you can snoop around.  It's interesting that Vive's motion compensation is called ASW in the htcvr.vrsettings file (just like Oculus's asynchronous spacewarp).

 

And if you check the vrcompositor log file you can get a hint of how thing works.  It clearly detects and measures your GPU speed on startup using 2880x1700 render target, also estimates the throughput afterward.  The default render width per eye is actually pretty high at 3884 pixels and this gets adjusted with lowered scale accordingly.  It also logs the fps changes with timestamps.  This is quite handy since it records any reprojection changes (90 to 45 to 30 to 22 to 18 fps).  So if you get jelly like artifacts in a game, chances are your fps is below 45 since Vive's motion compensation sucks at anything below 1:2, and you can use this log to double check that.

 

And again.. Likely intended for use with the automatic setting to determine the resolution set by Vive Console which has a switch at the top of the display settings page.   Chances are this is obviously bugged, though I appreciate your willingness to dig into file explorer.   I mean.. the headset is fresh out the gate.  I know you'd like to think it's something on my end for some reason.    But I'm pretty confident it's buggy software that will hopefully be addressed.. as the state of software upon release is less than satisfactory.   

 

Can I ask, what makes more sense to you.. A.)automatic resolution scaling setting resolutions despite having disabled that option in both vive console and SteamVR or B.) buggy software for a piece of hardware that's been out for less than a week publicly?  Take a look at reddit and the vive forums and I'm clearly not alone here either.  

 

I am quite capable of measuring my FPS and system performance and have various tools for doing so.  Staying well below 22.2 ms frametime means being capable of maintaining more than the 45fps minimum required for motion compensation @90hz.   If you'd like to ask me what game I'm talking about in the desire to share and compare expeirences. Please PM me and go have a look yourself.  I'd be interested to hear how it compares to motion smoothing in the Index.    

 

 

There is simply no viable reason to have automatic settings which have options to disable them, but they still work when you disable them.   Automatic resolution settings are also something that no VR gamer actually wants afaic, at least not in it's current state.   performance between VR titles varies too much and the available "Auto" settings really just give it their best guess for a general baseline.   If it looks like a bug, smells like a bug.. it's probably a bug. 

 

Anyway, I hope I haven't come off as offensive as anything as you are simply investigating things and trying to help.  But what makes more sense to me is the software is not behaving correctly. And we should be urging HTC to fix it ASAP rather than downplay the significance and stroking their ego.  

 

Here's an article for you that should clear you up at least on SteamVR's side of Automatic resolution scaling so you don't have to take my word for it.. which may lead to the conclusion that the behavior displayed in my video doesn't make any sense once 2 and 2 are put together.    

 

https://bit-tech.net/news/gaming/virtual-reality/steamvr-gets-automatic-supersampling-system/1/  

 

Quoting a line from the article " Naturally, either can be overridden manually for those who prefer full control over their graphical settings."   

 

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Headwarp