correct as is GPS guided weapons PP mode coordinate entry inaccuracies

[BarTzi]

This bug report is about the gps guided weapons ddi display, which is used when configuring one of the following weapons: JDAM, JSOW, SLAM and SLAM-ER.

 

1. Typing coordinates for TGT UFC, LP UFC, and slam-er steerpoints involves one extra, unnecessary step.

 

When you use the UFC to type the coordinate, you have to specify wether it's the LAT or LON coordinate first, via a ufc menu. This is redundant, since you already have to type W\E\S\N as a part of the coordinate. 

As you can see here (why do I have to select LAT, if I already have to type the letter N?):


 

In fact, typing coordinates for all of the above should be identical to creating a new waypoint. (LAT, LON shouldn't be selectable or appear at all. Only HDTH and TTHO should appear when you type the digits after the decimal point).

 

2. The format of the coordinates you type should be affected by the type of coordinates selected via hsi->data->a\c (either LATLNDCML or LATLNSEC)

 

More on this here: 

All of this can be backed up by documents that I can't share over the forums, but I believe the team has access to (can provide more info via PM). I think the development team has access to the same documents, so I suggest they take a look at this. 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by BarTzi

[speed-of-heat]

because this is the way it works in the jet... 

17 minutes ago, BarTzi said:

why do I have to select LAT, if I already have to type the letter N?


 

 

[BarTzi]

4 hours ago, speed-of-heat said:

because this is the way it works in the jet... 

 

I'm looking at a document that says otherwise. Can you please elaborate? 

[speed-of-heat]

no, my understanding is thats how it works in the jet, if you have NATOPS reference for the block 20 that says otherwise, i would post that here.

[nickos86]

1 hour ago, speed-of-heat said:

no, my understanding is thats how it works in the jet, if you have NATOPS reference for the block 20 that says otherwise, i would post that here.

"my understanding is..." - your understanding based on what? Documents? 

regarding the " if you have NATOPS reference for the block 20 that says otherwise, i would post that here." - he suggested to show in a PM because you can't show docs in the forum.

Thanks.

 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by nickos86

[speed-of-heat]

Is this a 15 minute argument, or thr full half hour... NMCNMM

[BarTzi]

1 hour ago, speed-of-heat said:

Is this a 15 minute argument, or thr full half hour... NMCNMM

Don't waste your time. This ia a bug report, and you are wrong. Move along and let the development team deal with this.

[Harker]

Indeed, the relevant manual makes no mention to having to select LAT and LON separately, the only relevant UFC option shown is POSN.

[speed-of-heat]

lets try this, what if your target is south of the equator  ...  or are you only ever going to target something in the northern hemisphere ... 

[Swift.]

1 hour ago, speed-of-heat said:

lets try this, what if your target is south of the equator  ...  or are you only ever going to target something in the northern hemisphere ... 

Then you press 8 to select South for the latitude, just like you would for a waypoint...

[Frederf]

Interesting, so by pressing 2/8/6/4 you pick N/S/E/W and don't have to specify lat/long? I'm trying to remember how I entered info last time. I think it required that I entered first lat then long as one long process? Should I be able to just do one aspect without the other?

[BarTzi]

5 hours ago, Frederf said:

Interesting, so by pressing 2/8/6/4 you pick N/S/E/W and don't have to specify lat/long? 

That's how it should work (just like it does for waypoints at the moment). Selecting LAT of LON via the UFC as an extra step, doesn't exist in the real jet.

Edited June 26, 2021 by BarTzi

[dorianR666]

this is now marked correct-as-is without ED replying (seems happening a lot lately).

 

you might wanna PM bignewy on your own.

[Fri13]

Oddity that you need to twice input that what are your coordinates. 

 

Interesting to see what ED replies as "correct as is" justification.

[Frederf]

Yeah I see that now. The menu tree for a lot of this data entry isn't right. I hope the real one allows you to enter POSN and ELEV without having to deselect/reselect UFC like we currently do.

[Cepheus76]

11 hours ago, Fri13 said:

Oddity that you need to twice input that what are your coordinates. 

 

Interesting to see what ED replies as "correct as is" justification.

Just speculating, but having to undertake extra steps to enter coordinates for a weapon may serve as a risk control measure.

 

When entering flightplan coordinates wrong, you can catch gross errors when your HSI planview doesn't match what the line on your map. If your avionics give you the flight plan total distance, you can compare that to the total distance shown on your flight log. With a weapon's coordinate you have not as many possibilities to catch an error. Sure, you can, and probably should, confirm the coordinates after entry, but when tired or exhausted, or being under combat stress, a pilot may not detect an error.

 

By requiring two distinct steps for entering latitude and longitude for a weapon waypoint can reduce the risk of data entry error, with all its undesirable outcomes.

[BarTzi]

11 hours ago, dorianR666 said:

this is now marked correct-as-is without ED replying (seems happening a lot lately).

 

you might wanna PM bignewy on your own.

Did that yesterday  The tag doesn't matter.

Edited June 26, 2021 by BarTzi

[Fri13]

8 hours ago, Cepheus76 said:

By requiring two distinct steps for entering latitude and longitude for a weapon waypoint can reduce the risk of data entry error, with all its undesirable outcomes.

 

That is good hypothesis, but considering that one would need to operate very close to equator and meridian to have error for coordinates in release range so that you would get release authority, for coordinates that you just inputted. 

 

Like could someone enter anyways a such coordinates that only a E to W or N to S error would allow them to release the weapon?

Shouldn't that happen around the Null Island itself by range of the weapon range for both to be high risk?

[Cepheus76]

@Fri113 good points. 

 

But perhaps I can refine my hypothesis further: By requiring separate entries for latitude and longitude, a data entry error for e.g. latitude can be corrected directly, without introducing the risk of corrupting the valid longitude value which exists when the whole set of coordinates must be entered anew.

 

In any case, I could also entertain the idea tthat the whole thing has little to do with risk management in the first place and is just a bit of a design-quirk which can occur in any complicated project

 

[maxTRX]

18 hours ago, Frederf said:

Yeah I see that now. The menu tree for a lot of this data entry isn't right. I hope the real one allows you to enter POSN and ELEV without having to deselect/reselect UFC like we currently do.

 

Yep, it is a strange procedure. I'd think completing all parts of any submenu and pressing 'Ent' would bring you back to top level of UFC entry menu. 

[Fri13]

39 minutes ago, Cepheus76 said:

@Fri113 good points. 

 

But perhaps I can refine my hypothesis further: By requiring separate entries for latitude and longitude, a data entry error for e.g. latitude can be corrected directly, without introducing the risk of corrupting the valid longitude value which exists when the whole set of coordinates must be entered anew.

 

I don't get that

 

39 minutes ago, Cepheus76 said:

In any case, I could also entertain the idea tthat the whole thing has little to do with risk management in the first place and is just a bit of a design-quirk which can occur in any complicated project

 

That I could find as logical reason that "let's make a safety to the safety system" that some engineers might have for some reason. 

 

Considering that you anyways wouldn't be designating targets for JDAM and such using targeting pod but using a intelligence reports before flight, that you are sitting in the cockpit entering those things or you have them in the data cartridge for the weapons automatically set already in the mission planning. 

So you are not suppose to be there entering those things in first place, why it can be more complex thing. 

 

This now requires clarification from multiple sources first that what is the real thing. As ED "Correct As Is" can't be correct when logic doesn't exist.