ASW aircraft

[Chewmann]

I would like to see a new branch in DCS to include anti-submarine aircraft like the P3 Orion, P8 Poseidon, or the S3 Viking.  I am particular to the S3 as it would launch off a carrier (something we already have in the game).

 

Just my thought.

[bies]

It would be engaging and interesting gameplay, but it would require some 3rd party with in depth knowledge to make ASW into the DCS.

 

It works very well in Sonalyst's simulator named "Dangerous Waters" when you can fly MH-60 helicopter from Oliver Hazard Perry frigate and P-3 Orion long range plane.

 

With throwing different buoys, active and passive sonars towed and dropped, magnetic anomaly detectors, FLIR and cameras, torpedoes, mines, bombs, Harpoons, Mavericks.

 

Hunting for Soviet submarines hiding below the thermoclines, shallow noisy waters, sandy bottoms, inside the underwater canyons, under the Arctic ice or near tectonic shelves.

Edited July 28, 2021 by bies

[Northstar98]

I would absolutely agree, though the thing is, the naval environment is nowhere near at the level that would be required for ASW and to be honest it's sorely lacking now for ASuW and AAW.

Would I love to have the naval environment improved? Abso-bloody-lutely, but unfortunately progress is exceptionally slow, the only improvements we've had since DCS 1.2.16 is torpedoes (though only straight-running and gyro-angle torpedoes are implemented and even then there's stuff wrong with them). There are however, several torpedo 'schemes' present in the files), submarines that can submerge (though it's still incredibly basic), and offensive manoeuvring (though only to open up the arcs for torpedoes and AShMs).

There's still an absolute tonne missing, and I could probably write a trilogy on the subject.

It's quite interesting though, as on the 2021 and beyond newsletter, an Il-38 is supposedly in the works, which is an MPA that AFAIK, is dedicated to ASW, despite there being no BLUFOR submarines, and ASW being as good as completely absent in DCS.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Northstar98
formatting

[rkk01]

3 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

 

It's quite interesting though, as on the 2021 and beyond newsletter, an Il-38 is supposedly in the works, which is an MPA that AFAIK, is dedicated to ASW, despite there being no BLUFOR submarines, and ASW being as good as completely absent in DCS.

 

There is an Oberon class boat supposedly in development…

[Tank50us]

My Ol'Man used to be on submarines as a Sonar Tech, and my younger brother is going to be an Aviation Electrician on P-3 Orions (I'm sure my dad is sooooo proud of that choice XD), so seeing this aspect of modern warfare present in DCS, even as an AI behavior, would be nice. I'd argue however that for flyable aircraft, I'd limit the choices to the S-3 and SH-60. The SH60 can be multi-mission capable of doing literally anything the Navy needs it to do. And with the S-3 out of service, the information on it will likely be available at some point.

[QuiGon]

I would love that (as well as a full fidelity sub module ), but DCS is missing sonar simulation, which would be required for this.

Edited July 29, 2021 by QuiGon

[rkk01]

As much as I’d like to see an expanded naval element in the sim - recent and especially WW2… I can’t help thinking that DCS isn’t the right platform for submarine warfare.

 

A LOT of work would required on the marine environment, assets, sensors and weapons systems - all for engagements that are largely hidden from view

 

Pragmatic approach would be to concentrate on surface ship assets

[Northstar98]

On 7/28/2021 at 10:14 PM, rkk01 said:

There is an Oberon class boat supposedly in development…

RAZBAM? South Atlantic assets?

Even so, that's an early-to-mid Cold War SSK, and one that isn't all that capable. A more appropriate submarine to do would be a Los Angeles-class, in preferably all 3 flights (Flt. I would be perfect for 80s Cold War scenarios, Flt. II for the late 80s with th VLS, and then the Flt. III for 90s to present day - all but 1 of them still in service).

Especially when you consider that Naval Base Guam is a RL base for 2 Flt. IIs and 2 Flt. IIIs, as well as an Emory S. Land-class submarine tender, unfortunately though the naval base and Apra harbour are far too shallow than they are IRL.

On 7/29/2021 at 11:19 AM, rkk01 said:

As much as I’d like to see an expanded naval element in the sim - recent and especially WW2… I can’t help thinking that DCS isn’t the right platform for submarine warfare.

 

A LOT of work would required on the marine environment, assets, sensors and weapons systems - all for engagements that are largely hidden from view

 

Pragmatic approach would be to concentrate on surface ship assets

This is the thing really, while I would love ASW in DCS (it's basically the only form of warfare that is completely absent, plus Naval Base Guam is a submarine base IRL), the naval environment as is needs an absolute tonne of work.

And again, I could write a novel on basically every single one of the following aspects:

• The damage modelling.
• The sensors modelling.
• The AI.
• The complete lack of EW and countermeasures.
• Missing functionality and controls.
• The physics modelling (i.e actually having a buoyancy model, and having vessels actually interact with the waves (currently it's completely random with a magnitude proportional to wind speed).
• Missing weapons (particularly for Mk41 VLS equipped ships).
• Numerous other corrections, even just getting the variant straight.
• The graphics - even new additions aren't exempt.
• I could even mention DCS using a flat Earth model.

And this is before we get into ASW, where basically all of the above applies only now we have to deal with:

• SONAR (both active and passive - and the best we'll get is something like Cold Waters or C:MANO)
• Environmental improvements (clutter/ambient noise, there's also improvements to the actual 'underwater' (and yes, we do have an underwater, like any submarine game, it's just very basic), and having more accurate bathymetry (though the latter doesn't have to have super duper resolution by any means, just reltively accurate to real life, with maybe pre-2.5 Caucasus map levels of resolution, with some autogen clutter).
• ASW weapons - currently there are no ASW capable torpedoes (well the Yu-6 should be ASW capable, but at the moment the only guidance system for torpedoes is gyroangle/straight-running, and even that has problems), there are also no depth charges or mines (the Hornet was upposed to get the Mk40 Destructor and Mk63 Quickstrike, but both were silently removed from the plans, despite being on them for years).
• Underwater graphical effects such as underwater explosions, bubbles, cavitation etc.
• Underwater explosion modelling.

As I said previously though, the 2021 roadmap newlsetter mentions inluding the Il-38 [NATO: "May"] MPA, which is essentially dedicated to ASW. This aicraft, from the early 80-ish and onwards uses the following (taken from C:MANO database):

• AT-2M heavyweight torpedo (HF active/passive, with circular search pattern).
• APR-2 Orlan-M lightweight, rocket propelled torpedo (HF active/passive guidance, with circular search pattern).
• PLAB-250 depth-charges
• RGB-1 [NATO: BM-1] search, MF, passive-only, omni-directional sonobuoys.
• RGB-2 [NATO: BM-2] track, MF, passive-only, bearing-only, sonobuoys.
• RGB-3 track, MF, active-only, range-only, sonobuoys.
• APM-60 MAD (Magnetic Anomaly Detector)
• Berkut [NATO "Wet Eye"], IEEE X band/NATO I band, surface-search RADAR (for detecting, periscopes, snorkels, masts and antennae).

Edited October 29, 2021 by Northstar98
formatting

[rkk01]

A bit harsh on the Oberon class…

 

Mid CW for sure, but not retired until after the collapse of the USSR, and IIRC finally left RN service at the same time as the four Upholder class subs.

 

SSK contemporaries of the Valiant and Swiftsure class SSNs…?

… and from what I recall at the time, had a reputation for being very quiet and utilised for special ops with the SBS…?

[Northstar98]

On 7/29/2021 at 1:03 PM, rkk01 said:

A bit harsh on the Oberon class…

 

Mid CW for sure, but not retired until after the collapse of the USSR, and IIRC finally left RN service at the same time as the four Upholder class subs.

 

SSK contemporaries of the Valiant and Swiftsure class SSNs…?

… and from what I recall at the time, had a reputation for being very quiet and utilised for special ops with the SBS…?

Well, from the 80s onwards, you have the Kilo class, which is a very capable submarine, and the RN didn't have Spearfish until after the Cold War had ended.

And SSKs (basically all of them from the mid Cold War and onwards) lend themselves to being pretty darn quiet. As for special forces insertion, that's functionality completely absent in DCS (though I guess you could crudely workaround it using triggers and late activation of units, but it's far from ideal).

Edited October 29, 2021 by Northstar98
formatting

[rkk01]

Either way, if Raz can get their S Atlantic map and assets packs out then we should get a big boost to CW naval assets

[Northstar98]

On 7/29/2021 at 1:29 PM, rkk01 said:

Either way, if Raz can get their S Atlantic map and assets packs out then we should get a big boost to CW naval assets

True, though unfortunately, having assets is only a very small piece of the puzzle in terms of improving the naval environment.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Northstar98
formatting

[frostycab]

I've been wishing for an ASW aspect to DCS for ages. Sonobouys, dipping sonar, MAD gear.... I love the old Tom Clancy novels and the excitement/boredom of hunting and prosecuting a submarine. Setting up picket lines and trying to keep a carrier taskforce safe seems like it could be so much fun, and there are some great helicopters for it that I'd love to see in the sim; Lynx/Wildcat, Sea King, MH-60, Ka-27...

 

Sadly, I can imagine that it would be a massive task to incorporate all the aspects of ASW operations that would be required to make it realistic. It would require detailed information about the submarines themselves, and that stuff seems to stay classified longer than almost anything else. Then there would be underwater topography, temperature modelling including the thermocline layer, currents.... It's a mammoth undertaking, and almost warrants its own sim, but I'd still jump for joy if we get it one day.

[Northstar98]

On 7/30/2021 at 4:42 PM, frostycab said:

I've been wishing for an ASW aspect to DCS for ages. Sonobouys, dipping sonar, MAD gear.... I love the old Tom Clancy novels and the excitement/boredom of hunting and prosecuting a submarine. Setting up picket lines and trying to keep a carrier taskforce safe seems like it could be so much fun, and there are some great helicopters for it that I'd love to see in the sim; Lynx/Wildcat, Sea King, MH-60, Ka-27...

I absolutely agree.

On 7/30/2021 at 4:42 PM, frostycab said:

Sadly, I can imagine that it would be a massive task to incorporate all the aspects of ASW operations that would be required to make it realistic.

Absolutely, especially when you factor in the fact that the current naval environment is nothing like fleshed out, and damn near all of them apply to ASW, as well as adding ASW specific things on top.

On 7/30/2021 at 4:42 PM, frostycab said:

It would require detailed information about the submarines themselves, and that stuff seems to stay classified longer than almost anything else.

Well, I think you could approximate most things, we really don't have a choice. The level that C:MANO or Cold Waters goes into would IMO be perfectly sufficient. The problem is when you run into full-fidelity modules.

But even that would be a lot of work.

On 7/30/2021 at 4:42 PM, frostycab said:

Then there would be underwater topography, temperature modelling including the thermocline layer, currents.... It's a mammoth undertaking, and almost warrants its own sim, but I'd still jump for joy if we get it one day.

Absolutely, though the funny thing is, is that we do have underwater topography, as well as an actual underwater (though very basic - check the spoiler) that is approximately accurate (at least with reference to the in game charts), the only maps that don't are the Caucasus and the Marianas maps, I have requested an improvement to the Marianas, but not much so far.

As for the others, the main things are thermoclines, convergence zones and surface ducts, as well as some SNR stuff with ambient noise, as well as taking in aspect and ownship noise into account - all things Cold Waters basically does, but with some approximations.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Northstar98
spelling

[IkarusC42B Pilot]

On 7/29/2021 at 9:37 AM, QuiGon said:

I would love that (as well as a full fidelity sub module ), but DCS is missing sonar simulation, which would be required for 

Not neceserly

Edited July 30, 2021 by IkarusC42B Pilot

[Silver_Dragon]

On 7/29/2021 at 12:37 PM, Northstar98 said:

As I said previously though, the 2021 roadmap newlsetter mentions inluding the Il-38 [NATO: "May"] MPA, which is essentially dedicated to ASW. This aicraft uses the following:

• AT-2M heavyweight torpedo (HF active/passive, with circular search pattern).
• APR-2 Orlan-M lightweight, rocket propelled torpedo (HF active/passive guidance, with circular search pattern).
• PLAB-250 depth-charges
• RGB-1 [NATO: BM-1] search, MF, passive-only, omni-directional sonobuoys.
• RGB-2 [NATO: BM-2] track, MF, passive-only, bearing-only, sonobuoys.
• RGB-3 track, MF, active-only, range-only, sonobuoys.
• APM-60 MAD (Magnetic Anomaly Detector)
• Berkut [NATO "Wet Eye"], IEEE X band/NATO I band, surface-search RADAR (for detecting, periscopes, snorkels, masts and antennae).

 

 

Nor sure if ED build the last version (N) or the old. Meanwhile, weapons and systems on il-38 May.

Sensors: Berkut [Wet Eye] radar, MAD, Berkut sonobuoy processor.

Some fitted with 2nd Gen Decoys. Usually operates within 1000 nmi of shore. Baltic war plans had 3 with 216 buoys, 3 search/attack, 2 transit to Bykhov or Ostrov to be loaded with NDB (nuclear depht bomb).
• Baltic Fleet: 145th OPLAE squadron (Riga-Skulte, Latvia) Nov 72 - 92/94. FOL Aden Oct 79; El Anad, Yemen (1983).
• Northern Fleet: 24th OPLAP regiment (Severmorsk-1) Aug 68 - 97/98. 403rd OSAP squadron from 1997/1998.
• Pacific Fleet: 77th OPLAP regiment (Nikolayevka) Aug 69 - Dec 93. 289th OSAP (Nikolayevka) and 317th OSAP (Yelizovo) squadrons from Dec 93. FOL at Asmara, Ethiopia 1980.
• Dec 67-Feb 72: 58 delivered. IOC delayed due to avionics issues.
• 1970: Some aircraft fitted with Vishnya COMINT system.
• 1977-83: Five exported to India.
• 1981: Some fitted for APR-2 Yastreb torpedoes.
• 1984-96: Seven Northern fleet a/c updated to Il-38P with Izumrud acoustic processor. In service Jan 90.
• 2013: 18 in service.
• 15 Jul 14: First Il-38N (Novella) delivered to Russian Navy. Has Novella 2 radar, Novella sonobuoy processor, Novella data link, 3rd Gen ESM, 2nd Gen FLIR, ELINT, MAD. RGB-41, RGB-48, RMB-81 buoys and GB-58 EER noise sources. Fifth delivered Jul 15, Seventh Dec 16.
• Feb 17: Eighth Il-38N delivered - seven Pacific, one North. All operational Il-38s (c30) to be upgraded to Novella standard by 2025.

Ordnance Loadouts: Payload: 8000 kg
• 10 PLAB-250-120 depth charges
• 216 RGB-1 sonobuoys (pure search)
• 144 RGB-1, 10 RGB-2, 3 RGB-3 sonobuoys, and either:
• 2 AT-1 or AT-2 or APR-1 or APR-2 or UMGT-1 torpedoes
• 10 PLAB-250-120 or 98 PLAB-MK DC
• 1 RYu-2 or RN-35 (1985) NDB

• Il-38N - 66 RGB-41, 25 RGB-48, 3 RMB-81 sonobuoys, and either:
• 2 APR-3 Orel torpedoes
• 10 PLAB-250-120 or 10 KAB-PL
• 8 AMD-2-500 mines
• 4 APM or 4 IGDM-500 or 4 RM-1 or 4 UDM-2 mines

[Northstar98]

On 7/30/2021 at 6:13 PM, Silver_Dragon said:

 

Nor sure if ED build the last version (N) or the old. Meanwhile, weapons and systems on il-38 May.

Sensors: Berkut [Wet Eye] radar, MAD, Berkut sonobuoy processor.

Some fitted with 2nd Gen Decoys. Usually operates within 1000 nmi of shore. Baltic war plans had 3 with 216 buoys, 3 search/attack, 2 transit to Bykhov or Ostrov to be loaded with NDB (nuclear depht bomb).
• Baltic Fleet: 145th OPLAE squadron (Riga-Skulte, Latvia) Nov 72 - 92/94. FOL Aden Oct 79; El Anad, Yemen (1983).
• Northern Fleet: 24th OPLAP regiment (Severmorsk-1) Aug 68 - 97/98. 403rd OSAP squadron from 1997/1998.
• Pacific Fleet: 77th OPLAP regiment (Nikolayevka) Aug 69 - Dec 93. 289th OSAP (Nikolayevka) and 317th OSAP (Yelizovo) squadrons from Dec 93. FOL at Asmara, Ethiopia 1980.
• Dec 67-Feb 72: 58 delivered. IOC delayed due to avionics issues.
• 1970: Some aircraft fitted with Vishnya COMINT system.
• 1977-83: Five exported to India.
• 1981: Some fitted for APR-2 Yastreb torpedoes.
• 1984-96: Seven Northern fleet a/c updated to Il-38P with Izumrud acoustic processor. In service Jan 90.
• 2013: 18 in service.
• 15 Jul 14: First Il-38N (Novella) delivered to Russian Navy. Has Novella 2 radar, Novella sonobuoy processor, Novella data link, 3rd Gen ESM, 2nd Gen FLIR, ELINT, MAD. RGB-41, RGB-48, RMB-81 buoys and GB-58 EER noise sources. Fifth delivered Jul 15, Seventh Dec 16.
• Feb 17: Eighth Il-38N delivered - seven Pacific, one North. All operational Il-38s (c30) to be upgraded to Novella standard by 2025.

Ordnance Loadouts: Payload: 8000 kg
• 10 PLAB-250-120 depth charges
• 216 RGB-1 sonobuoys (pure search)
• 144 RGB-1, 10 RGB-2, 3 RGB-3 sonobuoys, and either:
• 2 AT-1 or AT-2 or APR-1 or APR-2 or UMGT-1 torpedoes
• 10 PLAB-250-120 or 98 PLAB-MK DC
• 1 RYu-2 or RN-35 (1985) NDB

• Il-38N - 66 RGB-41, 25 RGB-48, 3 RMB-81 sonobuoys, and either:
• 2 APR-3 Orel torpedoes
• 10 PLAB-250-120 or 10 KAB-PL
• 8 AMD-2-500 mines
• 4 APM or 4 IGDM-500 or 4 RM-1 or 4 UDM-2 mines

Awesome, thanks for the comprehensive information SD, I appreciate it!

Still it looks like the aircraft is solely dedicated to ASW, which calls into question just what ED's plans are.

The Tu-142 that we have (which is presumably a Tu-142MK [NATO: "Bear F Mod. 3"] or Tu-142MZ [NATO: "Bear F Mod. 4"] - I really wish ED would be more precise about the variants and not leave it completely ambiguous) has only the Kh-35 available (and I'm unsure if that's accurate, though it should definitely have an extensive ASW payload, consisting of sonobuoys (RGB-15, -25, -55, -75), torpedoes (I'm guessing AT-2, AT-3, APR-2, APR-3), depth charges etc.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Northstar98
formatting

[Northstar98]

On 7/30/2021 at 5:57 PM, IkarusC42B Pilot said:

Not neceserly

SONAR implementation is an absolute must for ASW in DCS, even if approximated, you really can't get around it.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Northstar98
formatting

[Silver_Dragon]

1 minute ago, Northstar98 said:

 

SONAR implementation is an absolute must for ASW in DCS, even if approximated, you really can't get around it.

 

Someone like in a future, fly hunting subs on helos, protecting convoys / SAGs / TF on modern and search U-Boats on the channel on Mosquitos with DC, with a destroyer get "Datums" near convoys.

[QuiGon]

1 hour ago, IkarusC42B Pilot said:

Not neceserly

 

ASW aircraft without sonar would be kinda dumb.

[IkarusC42B Pilot]

11 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

 

SONAR implementation is an absolute must for ASW in DCS, even if approximated, you really can't get around it.

Its more then possible to get around it without a sonar on the plane

 

 

[rkk01]

Are there up to date equivalents to Dangerous Waters / Fleet Command / 688i etc…?

 

Used to have these, but it was a long time ago - and I probably gravitated more to Silent Hunter 3.  Still, all fascinating, deeply involving sims

[Northstar98]

On 7/31/2021 at 7:07 AM, IkarusC42B Pilot said:

Its more then possible to get around it without a sonar on the plane

MPAs typically rely mostly on sonobuoys for detection of underwater contacts, that would require some sort of SONAR modelling.

The only other sensor capable of underwater search is MAD (Magnetic Anomaly Detection), which is more limited in its capability.

The only other sensors are spotting the submarine visually (requiring it to be near the surface), or by detecting its periscopes, snorkels or other masts and antennae (using RADAR, visually, or using ELINT, which requires the submarine transmit either communications, or use its RADAR masts).

ASW helicopters almost always have dipping sonars, which may have active and/or passive modes.

ASW torpedoes dropped from aircraft are always guided via SONAR, and the exact same principles apply to SONAR on other platforms.

Ships pretty much exclusively use SONAR to detect submarines, the only other way being RADAR or visual detection of persicopes/masts or antennae or using ELINT/ESM but that requires emissions from the submarine (communications transmissions or for the submarine to use its RADAR mast).

You really cannot get around it without implementing SONAR in some form.

On 7/31/2021 at 8:03 AM, rkk01 said:

Are there up to date equivalents to Dangerous Waters / Fleet Command / 688i etc…?

 

Used to have these, but it was a long time ago - and I probably gravitated more to Silent Hunter 3.  Still, all fascinating, deeply involving sims

Best is Cold Waters at the moment.

There is another one coming out called Sea Power too, which is more like a successor to fleet command.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Northstar98
formatting

[IkarusC42B Pilot]

33 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

MPAs typically rely mostly on sonobuoys for detection of underwater contacts, that would require some sort of SONAR modelling.

 

The only other sensor capable of underwater search is MAD (Magnetic Anomaly Detection), which is more limited in its capability.

 

The only other sensors are spotting the submarine visually (requiring it to be near the surface), or by detecting its periscopes, snorkels or other masts and antennae (using RADAR, visually, or using ELINT, which requires the submarine transmit either communications, or use its RADAR masts).

 

ASW helicopters almost always have dipping sonars, which may have active and/or passive modes.

 

ASW torpedoes dropped from aircraft are always guided via SONAR, and the exact same principles apply to SONAR on other platforms.

 

You really cannot get around it without implementing SONAR in some form.

 

 

Best is Cold Waters at the moment.

 

There is another one coming out called Sea Power too.

 

Again. The aircraft dosent need to search for targets. It can receive targets via dl then the nerds in the back calculate a solution for torpedo.

What part of it dosent necceserily need a sonar you dont understand?

[Northstar98]

On 7/31/2021 at 11:20 AM, IkarusC42B Pilot said:

Again. The aircraft dosent need to search for targets. It can receive targets via dl then the nerds in the back calculate a solution for torpedo.

What part of it dosent necceserily need a sonar you dont understand?

Ikarus, this really isn't difficult...

How are those platforms going to detect targets for you to receive in the first place? Magic? ESP?

And again, those torpedoes, use active/passive SONAR for guidance, where the exact same problems arise. As for solutions, aerial ASW torpedoes almost universally do the same thing, upon entering the water they start a helical search (circular that slowly descends until it reaches a preset depth), and they search for the target using SONAR (which may be active, passive or both) - where the exact same issues arise.

And what would be the point of an aircraft, which is at least in part dedicated to underwater search, not being capable of underwater search? In basically all cases of ASW aircraft, the main sensor used in detecting submarines is SONAR, either using sonobuoys or dipping SONARs.

The Il-38 as an example is almost completely dedicated to underwater search, predominatly using sonobuoys (which are also its only option against submarines that aren't at or near the surface), which absolutely require some implementation of SONAR.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Northstar98