Option to remove CFTs

[MoGas]

16 hours ago, Nahen said:

Again and again and again ...

Have you read this entire thread? I do not think so...

Sometimes when I repair my cars, I disconnect the fuel hose from the tank and put it in a bottle with gasoline. Does it mean that you meet  cars such fuel-powered on the streets?

How many times can it be the same, the F-15E WILL NOT FLY WITHOUT CFT except for technical reviews, tests, and sometimes airshows. It is basically an integral part of this machine, but it can be disassembled for maintenance, technical reviews etc.
Anyway, why am I typing about it again? In a few days or weeks again someone will come back with a photo or a movie of the F-15E without CFT...

First, we have a crisis in Europe, the demand for CAP flyts are high, the F-15Es performe CAP roles over Poland. The F-15C got send back to the US, there are no F-15Cs in Europe anymore. Second, I never thought that I will see SU-27s and Mig-29s shooting HARM missiles. In such times you need to think out of the box too. That video could be a performance flight with removed CFT vs standard F-15Es as I can see both in that video, if the benefit for the US Airforce in case of less drag (less fuel consumption, costs money) better BFM performance etc., it could be that some F.15Es get them removed, why not. The F-15E community is getting more and more into the A2A role in the last couple months.

[Nahen]

First of all, in Poland - "at my window" I can see F-16 and F-22 plus EF2000 which are to guard the sky. The F-15Es when they are in Poland are not popping up to provide a CAP umbrella and still have CFT. Our F-16s are for that.

Second, the F-15E without CFT will never match the F-15C in maneuverability, acceleration, and overall maneuverability. Why? Because it is much heavier, and even more powerful engines will not change the inertia of a heavier machine. Anyway, this topic was rolled over a million times. The F-15A / C is simply more maneuverable due to its lighter weight. And do not try to say that without the CFT the F-15E is comparatively lighter because the difference of more than two tons of weight - almost three is the weight of the airframe structure itself - the reinforcement of the structure for the E version is just an additional almost three tons. CFT is out this

So no one in their right mind will make the F-15E an air superiority fighter, the more so as today it has nothing to replace it in its primary impact role.

When the EX comes in, it will be so advanced that it will certainly be a better successor to the F-15C than E. The difference between E and EX today is not as great as between C and EX. In addition, before its implementation into serial production, the promoted and most frequently shown / discussed / advertised role of EX was air superiority with more numbers of the AiM-120 and equipped with systems that are primarily to give it an advantage in air combat.

So I don't think anyone wasting a purebred strike machine and sending it to fighter tasks, the more so as it is still inferior to its predecessor in this matter.

I don't think anybody has ever used an F-15E without a CFT in combat. When I see I will change my mind. I do not see such a need for today and the next 10-15 years.

[QuiGon]

20 hours ago, Nahen said:

You do not understand what I wrote - the F-15E NEVER FLYS WITHOUT CFT neither in training, combat, it is never used without CFT.

But then why do these naked Strike Eagles have missiles on them in the video?

Edited September 11, 2022 by QuiGon

[Nahen]

17 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

But then why do these naked Strike Eagles have missiles on them in the video?

 

Ask those who shot the movie and those who flew - why they did it ...

[QuiGon]

12 minutes ago, Nahen said:

Ask those who shot the movie and those who flew - why they did it ...

Well, the video answers this: To train for air defense sorties... without CFTs. Something you said doesn't happen

Edited September 11, 2022 by QuiGon

[Nahen]

How many times can write - for service and testing purposes, SOMETIMES are taken off the CFT for training, sometimes for air shows. If, however, someone comes up with the idea of replacing the F-15C with the E version (which is a pointless move for today), it may be in the future - until the number of EX is sufficient to take over the role of Air Superiority after the F-15C, MAYBE F- 15E will / start to fly routinely without CFT.
For today, routinely - combat - every day - according to plan - according to the adopted doctrine and tactical assumptions - F-15E DOES NOT FLY WITHOUT CFT.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Nahen

[QuiGon]

33 minutes ago, Nahen said:

For today, routinely - combat - every day - according to plan - according to the adopted doctrine and tactical assumptions - F-15E DOES NOT FLY WITHOUT CFT.

But said video is not from the future, it's showing what they are doing today and there you can clearly see them training armed without CFTs!

Edited September 11, 2022 by QuiGon

[Spurts]

22 hours ago, henshao said:

Makes me wonder if the Air Force isn't doing a little shuffling of duties. Originally, the F-15EX was going to replace the F-15C, but you only ever see the EX as two-seaters with strike CFTs.

Because the production line for single seat Eagles has been shut down for decades and no longer exists.  Same reason the new Eagle has to have the heavier airframe and strike CFTs, those are what is in production.  Lastly, the F-15EX only exists because Saudi paid for the development of the F-15SA.  The EX is Is just an American SA with EPAWSS.

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Spurts

[Cab]

On 9/10/2022 at 9:55 AM, MoGas said:

 

This video is really, really interesting.

I know I'm not the only person who has been saying it, but I'll quote myself from earlier in this thread:

On 6/13/2022 at 8:35 AM, Cab said:

The only reason no one uses the E this way is because it has always been more valuable as a striker. If, on the other hand, a scenario presented itself where a significant number of highly maneuverable fighters were required, they would strip CFTs off and send them up.

[Nahen]

1 hour ago, QuiGon said:

But said video is not from the future, it's showing what they are doing today and there you can clearly see them training armed without CFTs!

 

Because sometimes fighters fly with colored smoke generators attached ... but they do not fly with them on a daily basis ... Somehow I have never seen an F-15E without CFT in Poland ... I don't think anyone sends an F-15E to Poland at the present time to fun play. So when it's time for "war games" and someone wants to check something - as I wrote earlier - training, testing - they probably do. The F-15E does not fly on a daily basis especially in combat without CFT. Is it difficult to understand?

A "practical" question, what is the point of sending a two-person fighter in which WSO has nothing to do in air combat mode? Exposing two people instead of one to the potential loss when in Lakenheath stationed of a single seated fighters like F-35? They currently stationed in Poland, apart from our F-16, EF-2000, F-22 and F-35 all one seated fighters.
In addition to training, how many two-seater fighter planes are currently in use in the world whose sole purpose is air combat / air superiority? The last one was the F-14 and only because of the avionics and combat system built around the AiM-54.

Treat such videos as a curiosity and nothing else. In Europe at the moment there is such saturation with typical single-seat fighters that no F-15E needs to pretend to be F-15C. And when the boys in Lakenheath are bored, they have fun and that's it.

[Cab]

4 minutes ago, Nahen said:

Because sometimes fighters fly with colored smoke generators attached ... but they do not fly with them on a daily basis ... Somehow I have never seen an F-15E without CFT in Poland ... I don't think anyone sends an F-15E to Poland at the present time to fun play. So when it's time for "war games" and someone wants to check something - as I wrote earlier - training, testing - they probably do. The F-15E does not fly on a daily basis especially in combat without CFT. Is it difficult to understand?

A "practical" question, what is the point of sending a two-person fighter in which WSO has nothing to do in air combat mode? Exposing two people instead of one to the potential loss when in Lakenheath stationed of a single seated fighters like F-35? They currently stationed in Poland, apart from our F-16, EF-2000, F-22 and F-35 all one seated fighters.
In addition to training, how many two-seater fighter planes are currently in use in the world whose sole purpose is air combat / air superiority? The last one was the F-14 and only because of the avionics and combat system built around the AiM-54.

Treat such videos as a curiosity and nothing else. In Europe at the moment there is such saturation with typical single-seat fighters that no F-15E needs to pretend to be F-15C. And when the boys in Lakenheath are bored, they have fun and that's it.

I honestly don’t know why I keep getting sucked into this.

Someone help me before I post again.

 

[felixx75]

I thought Razbam had already said that they will not include an option to remove the CFT (among other things because that would mean a completely new FM)... Then what is actually still being discussed here?

[MAXsenna]

4 minutes ago, felixx75 said:

Then what is actually still being discussed here?

Something without a definitive answer they can agree upon, that's for sure.  

[Mig Fulcrum]

Lol, are you guys still talking about removable CFTs? It has been what? An year talking about this? The answer is still "NO" I think.

[QuiGon]

2 hours ago, Nahen said:

The F-15E does not fly on a daily basis especially in combat without CFT. Is it difficult to understand?

I don't think anyone argued that they do not fly without CFT on a daily basis...

What people said (and what you seem to struggle to understand) is, that on very rare occasians they do fly actual training sorties without CFTs, as shown in the video above, and would do so IRL if the situation calls for it (air defense).

 

1 hour ago, felixx75 said:

I thought Razbam had already said that they will not include an option to remove the CFT (among other things because that would mean a completely new FM)... Then what is actually still being discussed here?

Well, I can't speak for others, but I'm discussing CFT use (or rather non-use of them) for real world operations as I'm aware that RAZBAM will not include the option to remove them and that's perfectly fine with me

Edited September 11, 2022 by QuiGon

[felixx75]

6 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

Well, I can't speak for others, but I'm discussing CFT use (or rather non-use of them) for real world operations as I'm aware that RAZBAM will not include the option to remove them and that's perfectly fine with me

Then a new thread would be a better place for it, wouldn't it. This thread was originally to ask about an option to remove the CFT in the upcoming F-15E. 
 

[QuiGon]

1 hour ago, felixx75 said:

Then a new thread would be a better place for it, wouldn't it. This thread was originally to ask about an option to remove the CFT in the upcoming F-15E. 

True, but the video was posted here and the IRL aspect was part of the debate

[Bulldog_1]

[henshao]

[Cab]

59 minutes ago, henshao said:

"Who's the more foolish? The fool or the fool who follows him?" Obi Wan Kenobi

If you think about it, it kind of applies here.

[henshao]

8 hours ago, Spurts said:

Because the production line for single seat Eagles has been shut down for decades and no longer exists.  Same reason the new Eagle has to have the heavier airframe and strike CFTs, those are what is in production.  Lastly, the F-15EX only exists because Saudi paid for the development of the F-15SA.  The EX is Is just an American SA with EPAWSS.

 

 

Now, as I understood it, there was only ever one production line for Eagles and the tooling for Cs was never destroyed. Some of the F-15Cs the Saudi's ordered after E production began were still 28000lb, -220 F-15Cs. But I could be wrong. Additionally, I've been told that all CFTs are made by IAI. Considering how much more drag the strike CFTs have than the slick ones, the EX having bomb racks is kind of telling

Edited September 11, 2022 by henshao

[Spurts]

27 minutes ago, henshao said:

Now, as I understood it, there was only ever one production line for Eagles and the tooling for Cs was never destroyed. Some of the F-15Cs the Saudi's ordered after E production began were still 28000lb, -220 F-15Cs. But I could be wrong. Additionally, I've been told that all CFTs are made by IAI. Considering how much more drag the strike CFTs have than the slick ones, the EX having bomb racks is kind of telling

 

Tooling being destroyed or not is irrelevant.  There is no active line for C models.  Es were in production since 1985, but the C line all but shut down the same year.  The Single Seat J was built in Japan until 1997 with "DJ" models during that time as well.  Also, the last USAF Cs weighed in at 31,000lb, not 28,000lb.  There have been no light weight Eagles built anywhere since 1997, and not in the US since 1985.  I will repeat, there is NO production facility with tooling to make a lightweight Eagle or a Single Seat Eagle anywhere in the world.  

[Versor]

What are you discussing so much here? It is simple. If in a real F15 E it is possible to disassemble the CFT. No matter what for. This should be an option in DCS. And I am not interested in what  are you thinking about this. Is it necessary or not. 

When it comes to FM, that's a fact. Disassembly the CFT will change FM, and maybe Razbam doesn't want to play with this anymore.

[Spurts]

12 minutes ago, Versor said:

What are you discussing so much here? It is simple. If in a real F15 E it is possible to disassemble the CFT. No matter what for. This should be an option in DCS. And I am not interested in what  are you thinking about this. Is it necessary or not. 

When it comes to FM, that's a fact. Disassembly the CFT will change FM, and maybe Razbam doesn't want to play with this anymore.

This is it.  Again.  They have already stated they will NOT do a CFT removal FM, and they should not.  That would add a lot of time to the development and cost a lot of money.  It will not happen.  

[Despayre]

35 minutes ago, Versor said:

What are you discussing so much here? It is simple. If in a real F15 E it is possible to disassemble the CFT. No matter what for. This should be an option in DCS...

Why? There's a billion things in every aircraft that aren't in DCS, nor do they need to be, nor "should" they be.

Ppl need to get over this ridiculousness, or make their own FM.