Phantom FG.1 (F-4K)

[Cdodders]

37 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

+1 but personally I'd prefer post 1979 British Phantoms and Buccaneers (preferably into the 80s for the Buccaneer), by then they were both gone from RN service, but they were more capable and more fitting for DCS.

That said though, as it stands the best version for DCS IMO is a USAF F-4E circa 1988 (earlier F-4Es simply being a matter of using historical mode with the stores AFAIK), followed by an early 80s USN F-4S.

DCS needs to flesh out the Mid Ckld War stuff too

[Northstar98]

On 11/1/2021 at 12:37 PM, Tank50us said:

The issue with any F-4 being added is that there were so many variants of the blasted thing that the moment one does get added people will instantly demand one of the more obscure variants or one of the national variants gets added as well, and then moan when it doesn't behave like they expect it do.

Then these people need to stop and think about what best fits DCS, right now?

I'm a fan of the F-4M and F-4K, but I realise they are niche variants which were only in service with a single operator, and until the South Atlantic map hits, they'll be completely without a map (F-4Ms were based at RAF Stanley from 1983 - 1985, then at RAF Mount Pleasant until 1991 when they were replaced with Tornado F.3s), that and with Britain being Britain, getting hold of any documentation (especially for the RADAR, RWR and EW equipment) is probably going to be next to impossible, given that the UK likes to classify anything and everything regardless of how long it's been out of service and how many times it's been superceded.

With that in mind, right now, IMO, the 2 Phantoms that best fit DCS right now are as follows:

A USAF F-4E circa 1988 - 1990, preferably in 3rd TFW spec (just gives us the GBU-15 and it's accompanying AN/AXQ-14 pod). This fits very well with HB's current offerings, and gives us the most to play with, while still keeping the Phantom, a Phantom, unlike the F-4F ICE or F-4E Terminator/Kurnass 2000 or F-4EJ Kai abominations. But if anybody is worried that this Phantom is too modern, don't worry - you go right the way back to 1977 (at least) just by using historical mode to restrict the weapons, everything else is more-or-less identical. I'll detail the differences from what I can find from the C:MO database below.

Spoiler

USAF F-4E circa 1977:

Sensors:

• AN/APQ-120 RADAR
• AN/ASX-1 TISEO - 1st gen TV
• AN/APR-37 RWR

Internal Mounts/Stores/Weapons:

• M61 Vulcan with 640 rounds
• AN/ALE-40(V)1 (90 cartridges in 4 banks)

Stores:

• 370 USG Drop Tank
• 600 USG Drop Tank
• AGM-65A Maverick [EO]
• AGM-65B Maverick [EO]
• AIM-7E-2/-3 Sparrow III
• AIM-7F Sparrow III
• AIM-9J Sidewinder
• AN/ALQ-119 DECM pod
• AN/AVQ-23 Pave Spike (1st gen. TV + 12k ft LTD/R)
• B43 (1 mt nuclear)
• B57 (20 kt nuclear)
• B61 (340 kt nuclear)
• BLU-27/B 750 lb Incendiary
• CBU-52/B CB [220 × BLU-61/B frag bomblets]
• CBU-71A/B CB [650 × BLU-86/B frag bomblets]
• GBU-10A/B Paveway I LGB [Mk84]
• GBU-12A/B Paveway I LGB [Mk82]
• GBU-8 HOBOS [Mk84]
• M117 750 lb GPB
• M117R 750 lb GPB (retarded)?
• Mk20 Rockeye II CB [247 × Mk118 dual-purpose bomblets]
• Mk82 500 lb LDGP
• Mk82 500 lb Snake Eye
• Mk84 2000 lb LDGP

1981:

• AIM-7E-2/-3 deleted
• AIM-9J replaced with AIM-9L
• GBU-10A/B Paveway I [Mk84] replaced with GBU-10E/B Paveway II [Mk84]
• GBU-12A/B Paveway I [Mk82] replaced with GBU-12D/B Paveway II [Mk82]

1984:

• AIM-7M Sparrow III added (not sure this is accurate though, AIM-7M uses an inverse-monopulse seeker, but AFAIK, the Phantom only supports CWI)
• AN/AVQ-23 Pave Spike replaced with AN/AVQ-26 Pave Tack [1st gen FLIR (AN/AAQ-9) + 12k ft LTD/R]
• GBU-8 HOBOS deleted
• GBU-15(V)1/B CWW [EO, Mk84] and accompanying AN/AXQ-14 DL pod added (3rd TFW aircraft)

1986:

• AIM-9M added
• GBU-10J/B Paveway II [BLU-109/B] added
• GBU-15(V)2 CWW [IIR, Mk84] added (3rd TFW aircraft)
• GBU-15(V)31/B CWW [EO, BLU-109/B] added (3rd TFW aircraft)
• GBU-15(V)32/B CWW [IIR, BLU-109/B] added (3rd TFW aircraft)
• Mk82 AIR added?
• Mk84 AIR added?

1988-1990:

• CBU-87/B CB [202 × BLU-97/B CEM] added
• CBU-89/B GATOR CB [72 × BLU-91/B AT mines + 22 × BLU-92/B APERS mines] added

 

A USN/USMC F-4S circa early 80s, which is the Phantom variant that best fits HB's Forrestal (which is, pedantically speaking, in a 1990s fit).

On 11/1/2021 at 12:37 PM, Tank50us said:

Honestly, I say this: If you want an F-4, just take the F-4E and be happy. You can have it be carrier capable (not entirely realistic, since the Es were USAF only, but what the hey), and have an option to use the British Engine, but at this point.... there are so many variants of the F-4, that in order to make everyone happy, you're going to have to break reality. in order to please all the Phantom Phanatics

Nah, I don't want a carrier capable F-4E, and I especially don't want it to have an optional RR Spey.

Just do 2 variants that'll satisfy the most amount of people, taking into consideration what the current and near future state of DCS is going to be, and go with those.

Personally, those are a USAF F-4E and a USN/USMC F-4S.

The F-4K and F-4M are both based on the F-4J, which is also what the F-4S is an upgrade of, so the F-4S is the better stand-in.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Northstar98
Correction in breakdown: AN/APG-120 -> AN/APQ-120

[Northstar98]

On 11/6/2021 at 12:50 PM, Cdodders said:

DCS needs to flesh out the Mid Ckld War stuff too

True, it needs to flesh out just about every era, because currently it has a problem of being a mile wide but an inch deep.

So far the mid Cold War (which I'll define as 1961 to 1975) has the following:

• Only has 3 full-fidelity modules, 1 of them a trainer (F-5E-3, MiG-21bis and L-39C), though there is also the F-8J on the way.
• Maybe a couple of AI aircraft (F-4E, though this has more updated weapons).
• Quite a few REDFOR air defences, with the S-75M/SA-2d, S-125M/SA-3b, the upcoming S-200V/SA-5b, the 9K33M/SA-8b and the 9K31/SA-9a. There is also Rapier (though without Blindfire for the UK). We have a couple of REDFOR vehicles, though hardly any BLUFOR vehicles (can only think of the Land Rovers, maybe the Chieftain Mk.7/L and the Leopard 1A3), there are however a few REDFOR vehicles (T-55A, BMP-1, BMD-1, BTR-RD, BRDM-2).
• No naval assets (though RAZBAM are developing a fair number of escorts that could fit).
• No map.

So without an appropriate map, and the sheer lack of other modules, let alone AI aircraft (like AV-MF Tu-16s and Tu-22s), as well as other naval assets, it would take more work to flesh out compared to the late Cold War (which I'll define as 1976 to 1989), which currently has the following:

• Only the Mirage 2000C as a full fidelity module (and only just, our 2000C is 1989 at the earliest), though there is an early F-14A (suitable for pre 1994 missions) in the works, as well as an A-6E (variant depending, TRAM and WCSI fit here) and an A-7E. There is also a 9-12 MiG-29 in a 'hope-to' state. Here is where we also have the C-101, L-39ZA and the Mi-8MTV-2 and (without 9M120), the Mi-24P too (though it has Lipa removed). Finally, there's the Christen Eagle 2 and Yak-52 (though both unarmed).
• All of the FC3 aircraft apart from the F-15C, and if you exclude R-77, the 9-13S MiG-29S.
• There's a few more AI aircraft (mostly REDFOR - Tu-22M3, MiG-23MLD, MiG-25, Su-17M4).
• The majority of air defence systems: MIM-23B I-HAWK PIP Phase 1, Rapier FSA for the UK, Roland 2, Gepard, M163A2 (?) and MIM-72G for BLUFOR; for REDFOR we've got the 2K12M3/SA-6b, S-300PS/SA-10b, 9K35M3/SA-13, 9K37M1/SA-11, the 9K38/SA-18 (though uses the 9M342 missile of the 9K338/SA-24 from the mid 2000s) and the 9K330/SA-15a.
• The majority of REDFOR ground vehicles, and a few BLUFOR ground vehicles.
• 1 map (Caucasus) (?) - though is wholly unsuitable for BLUFOR vs REDFOR Cold War missions.
• The majority of REDFOR naval assets, but only HB's unreleased Forrestal for BLUFOR.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Northstar98
spelling

[Top Jockey]

Just for the record:

The F-4K FG.1 camouflage is probably my very first favourite from the many Phantom squadrons worldwide.

I know its time has passed long ago (probably even before I was born), but It's a pity that the Royal Navy eventually disbanded those squadrons.

[upyr1]

On 11/1/2021 at 6:29 AM, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Why is almost everybody enamored with F-4? Yes it is historical, and it served for a long time, and it was an important part of NATO battle plans to fight Soviets. 

That's the reason everyone wants the F-4 Phantom II it's got a long service history

 

On 11/1/2021 at 6:29 AM, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Vietnam, Israel 1973, Iraq/Iran War 1979-1989, Cold War 1.0, Gulf War 1.0, Syrian Civil War (Turkish F-4G reconnaissance variant )  shot down by SA-24 Greyhound near Syrian coastline.

 

That should read RF-4E the G model was a Wild Weasel that was only used by the USAF. Though there was a Navy G which was used to test an automated landing system but it was a development of the B. Other than that you just listed why people want the F-4. 

[upyr1]

On 11/1/2021 at 7:37 AM, Tank50us said:

The issue with any F-4 being added is that there were so many variants of the blasted thing that the moment one does get added people will instantly demand one of the more obscure variants or one of the national variants gets added as well, and then moan when it doesn't behave like they expect it do.

Honestly, I say this: If you want an F-4, just take the F-4E and be happy. You can have it be carrier capable (not entirely realistic, since the Es were USAF only, but what the hey), and have an option to use the British Engine, but at this point.... there are so many variants of the F-4, that in order to make everyone happy, you're going to have to break reality. in order to please all the Phantom Phanatics

Make up your mind here, do you want to read everyone complain about a fictional carrier based E, or would you rather not see non stop threads complaining about the DCS Phantom module being flawed? You can't have it both ways.  I know people will want the version's their nation or favorite branch of service used, and frankly I really don't see that as a problem. I believe Eagle and the other DCS developers need to think about multiple models of the same aircraft. The F-4 might be a good place to start. While I love multi-version packs I understand that might not always be possible since the early versions might be very different from the later versions. So like many other people I would advocate bundle deals which are based on how different the versions are.  

[upyr1]

On 11/1/2021 at 11:27 PM, DmitriKozlowsky said:

I'd likely buy this module provided that it modeled latest & greatest US Navy and RNFAA carrier based variants. So F-4S for USN, S was shared between navy and Marines. F-4K (aka F-4J) for RNFAA. 

F-4E , land variant, shared between USAF, RAF, Israeli AF, NATO Allies, and past allies turned foes, Iran.

I speculate that DCS community will react more positively to carrier based variants of F-4 then E landlubber variant.

 

HMS Ark Royal angled deck looks sweet. Be careful what you wish for. People might start making their own old 1970's and 1980's BBC or Discovery Wings style fakeomentaries. Complete with grain, blur, resolution at 740X486 interlaced, and sound hickups.

I'd like both land and carrier based versions. I'm one of the dudes who want as many versions as possible, but if I had to pick 2 it would be the J and E, if I had to pick 3 I would add the K. The 4th on the list is the D unless we could get the G., 5th would be the B or C (though from my understanding these were the closest variants between the services) 

[upyr1]

On 11/6/2021 at 8:04 AM, Northstar98 said:

True, it needs to flesh out just about every era, because currently it has a problem of being a mile wide but an inch deep.

So far the mid Cold War (which I'll define as 1961 to 1975) has the following:

• Only has 3 full-fidelity modules, 1 of them a trainer (F-5E-3, MiG-21bis and L-39C), though there is also the F-8J on the way.
• Maybe a couple of AI aircraft (F-4E, though this has more updated weapons).
• Quite a few REDFOR air defences, with the S-75M/SA-2d, S-125M/SA-3b, the upcoming S-200V/SA-5b, the 9K33M/SA-8b and the 9K31/SA-9a. There is also Rapier (though without Blindfire for the UK). We have a couple of REDFOR vehicles, though hardly any BLUFOR vehicles (can only think of the Land Rovers, maybe the Chieftain Mk.7/L and the Leopard 1A3), there are however a few REDFOR vehicles (T-55A, BMP-1, BMD-1, BTR-RD, BRDM-2).
• No naval assets (though RAZBAM are developing a fair number of escorts that could fit).
• No map.

The lack of aircraft and assets in the Vietnam era, is one of the reasons I would love to see multiple phantom modules as well as fleet ops. I figure  all the Naval versions could be bundled with a different iteration of the super carrier module. For example the B could be bundled with a Midway class carrier, the J the Enterprise, N and S Kittyhawk/JFK class carriers and the K  the Arc Royal. In other threads I have suggested that Eagle should do Combined Arms II and related modules in a way to take the place of asset packs. 

 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Mid Cold War 1961-1976, when RN retired angled deck carriers. I have held fascination with Sea Vixen, Buccaneer. and Hunter. British jets from that era tend to be quirky. Sea Vixen with its pilot side offset cockpit, and RIO/WSO that looked like it needed a shoehorn to get man in and out. Custom made for claustrophobic types. Especially on during carrier traps, when poor guy did not know what was happening,  if he was going to die instantaneously or drown , trapped in that sardine can.

Buccaneer, the carrier plane that could be folded like aluminum origami to fit onto British carrier elevators and low ceiling hangar deck. Survived long enough to fight in Gulf War 1.0 delivering guided munitions, and lasing for RAF and Allied Coalition.  Aircraft that was built for  mission of sinking Soviet Norhern and Baltic Fleet surface combatants.

Hunter. Now that is a special bird. That aircraft was everywhere. Europe/The Med, Africa, Middle East, South America, Far East, Indian Subcontinent, flown by governments, and PMC corporations fighting on fringes of Cold War. If DCS ever get Southern Africa, Angola, Rhodesia/Zimbabwe, Sub Saharan Africa, theater, it needs a DCS: Hawker Hunter.

[Grievo]

On 11/1/2021 at 7:29 PM, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Why is almost everybody enamored with F-4? Yes it is historical, and it served for a long time, and it was an important part of NATO battle plans to fight Soviets. But it is huge, heavy beast of an aircraft. Not particularly pretty. Or any pretty.

Vietnam, Israel 1973, Iraq/Iran War 1979-1989, Cold War 1.0, Gulf War 1.0, Syrian Civil War (Turkish F-4G reconnaissance variant )  shot down by SA-24 Greyhound near Syrian coastline.

 

How dare you sir. If I had a glove I'd slap you with it!

 

Look how good that thing looks in RN colours surrounded by steam. It's the perfect fusion of art and science!

[rkk01]

Hunter is also a very pretty bird and sounds amazing…

Used to see this one over the house when she was flying out of St Athan

Miss Demeanour

Buccaneers also made a big impression at 1977 Red Flag exercises IIRC

Here we go

[Mike Force Team]

We definitively want the F-4.  

[Nomatic]

Okay - yeah. F**k yeah. I’d 100% buy into this. Could use some British representation. Sign me up for a bad ass Lynx or Merlin module. Or both!  

[Mike Force Team]

To the folks at Heatblur, cough, cough, we want your programmers to create the F-4E phantom.  Should you company create the F-4 and sell it, virtual pilots will buy it and enjoy it :).

 

[Cdodders]

So it would seem there is a healthy appetite for any Phantom, but while we cannot agree what variant, we do seem to agree that it cannot be restricted to just one.

[Top Jockey]

Well ...

Keeping in mind this isn't anything more than wishfull thinking, (and that whichever developer would be inclined to do more than one Phantom version), my preferences would be:

- F-4E version, with the respective internal M61 gun

- F-4K FG.1 with the dark grey (or dark bluish?) camo of Royal Navy squadrons

- etc.

 

Avionics wise, any due version which employed:

- AIM-9G and its SEAM (Sidewinder Expanded Acquisiton Mode) feature

- VTAS feature

...

 

[upyr1]

On 11/12/2021 at 6:32 PM, Cdodders said:

So it would seem there is a healthy appetite for any Phantom, but while we cannot agree what variant, we do seem to agree that it cannot be restricted to just one.

True, it looks like we'll have to compromise and have the definitive block of every model.  

[Cdodders]

On 11/13/2021 at 2:12 PM, Top Jockey said:

Well ...

Keeping in mind this isn't anything more than wishfull thinking, (and that whichever developer would be inclined to do more than one Phantom version), my preferences would be:

- F-4E version, with the respective internal M61 gun

- F-4K FG.1 with the dark grey (or dark bluish?) camo of Royal Navy squadrons

- etc.

 

Avionics wise, any due version which employed:

- AIM-9G and its SEAM (Sidewinder Expanded Acquisiton Mode) feature

- VTAS feature

...

 

That would seem reasonable, although I suspect the addition of some USN variants and maybe another foreign user variant would also be reasonable.