F-15E WIP Update Discussion

[sirrah]

I don't think I've seen this one shared here yet:
 

Quick question about this video that maybe someone here can answer (also asked this on YT, but that's not really a good place to find answers imho):

I was wondering why Notso is doing all those steerpoint offset corrections? Why not directly/only use the target offset point to correct for drift? Isn't that the only meaningful location that you want to have as accurate as possible on radar?

 

[Ignition]

24 minutes ago, sirrah said:

I don't think I've seen this one shared here yet:
 

Quick question about this video that maybe someone here can answer (also asked this on YT, but that's not really a good place to find answers imho):

I was wondering why Notso is doing all those steerpoint offset corrections? Why not directly/only use the target offset point to correct for drift? Isn't that the only meaningful location that you want to have as accurate as possible on radar?

 

You want to arrive at the target with the least drift as possible. If you only have 1 point to do the fix and you can't find the correct position for wathever reason you will never find the target.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Ignition

[sirrah]

1 hour ago, Ignition said:

You want to arrive at the target with the least drift as possible. If you only have 1 point to do the fix and you can't find the correct position for wathever reason you will never find the target.

 

But isn't that why he chose 3 (or even 4) target offset points?

I get that, but what added value do all the steerpoint offsets have? (So the 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 etc., dozens of miles away from the target area). I mean, they also didn't seem to have any relation to his navigation waypoints. So, what's the purpose of correcting drift on those locations?

Edited April 12, 2023 by sirrah

[AhSoul]

He was using them to demo correcting the drift en-route. Why do it en-route? You could be flying a long mission and waiting to get to the target or your steerpoint a long way away to find it's a long way from where your nav thinks it is would be bad. Offsets near the target wouldn't help if the drift is too far for you to even find them. The steerpoint offers don't seem to need to be actually near the steerpoints - you're just finding known landmarks on the way to that steerpoint and comparing the landmarks to the steerpoint offsets to correct drift as you go.

He also said he'd artificially made the drift worse in the mission to over emphasise it.

Edited April 12, 2023 by AhSoul

[sirrah]

45 minutes ago, AhSoul said:

He was using them to demo correcting the drift en-route. Why do it en-route? You could be flying a long mission and waiting to get to the target or your steerpoint a long way away to find it's a long way from where your nav thinks it is would be bad. Offsets near the target wouldn't help if the drift is too far for you to even find them. The steerpoint offers don't seem to need to be actually near the steerpoints - you're just finding known landmarks on the way to that steerpoint and comparing the landmarks to the steerpoint offsets to correct drift as you go.

He also said he'd artificially made the drift worse in the mission to over emphasise it.

 

Yeah I realize he made the drift worse, for purpose of the tutorial.

So, the steerpoint offset points are used to correct drift along the route to the target, to avoid the drift exceed to a point where you won't easily be able to find the target at all? Did I get that right?

(Like intermediate drift correction, to avoid drift from getting out of hand?)

[LorenLuke]

9 minutes ago, sirrah said:

So, the steerpoint offset points are used to correct drift along the route to the target, to avoid the drift exceed to a point where you won't easily be able to find the target at all? Did I get that right?

(Like intermediate drift correction, to avoid drift from getting out of hand?)

Basically imagine drift getting so bad, that when you do a patch map of where the target should be, the whole thing has drifted so far that you neither know what you're looking at, nor where to move from that point to actually find the target.

If you correct the drift en route to the target, you only have to worry about the drift since the last time you took a fixpoint, rather than the drift from the point when you aligned the INS on the ground; so drift would be relatively minimal by comparison versus doing a correction on some landmark near the target (both of which you now can't even find in your high resolution map).

[sirrah]

18 minutes ago, LorenLuke said:

Basically imagine drift getting so bad, that when you do a patch map of where the target should be, the whole thing has drifted so far that you neither know what you're looking at, nor where to move from that point to actually find the target.

If you correct the drift en route to the target, you only have to worry about the drift since the last time you took a fixpoint, rather than the drift from the point when you aligned the INS on the ground; so drift would be relatively minimal by comparison versus doing a correction on some landmark near the target (both of which you now can't even find in your high resolution map).

That makes sense. Thanks mate  

[AhSoul]

What he said

[Phantom88]

 

[giullep]

6 ore fa, Phantom88 ha scritto:

 

2 weeks

[Shibbyland]

I've got reservations about pre-ordering this one.

The way the pre-order went, the sale price errors, opting out of the miles program, the South Atlantic map not being part of the free trial program. For me, it just doesn't inspire confidence in the product.

I own a number of RAZBAM modules and they're all very good but at least for me, unless I've bought them a long time after release, it's usually a bit shaky. For example, I regretted buying the MiG 19 initially. It's good now but getting to that point, I spent a long time just not using it.

I get the feeling when it comes to the F-15, early access is going to protracted beyond the typically lengthy process it already is for most modules.
 

I'm sure it'll be another great module in the fullness of time but I'm not feeling the hype this time.

[JumpinK]

8 hours ago, giullep said:

2 weeks

Those "to be released soon" "coming soon" "almost ready for takeoff" teasers are becoming ridiculously disappointing and they are killing the hype for the strike eagle completely!

My "I can't wait to explore the cockpit for myself" feelings are already gone because of seeing all the stuff on youtube without having a chance to enjoy it on my own.
It's been about half a year now since razbam announced a "we hope to release it in 2022"
The whole first quarter of 2023 was nothing but teasers that just slowly but surely killed my anticipation for the mudhen.

I went from "cant wait for it" to "i hope my preorder-purchase wasn't wasted money"...

For now it's just like paying a prostitute for the whole number but getting a lapdance only.

Edited April 15, 2023 by JumpinK

[AhSoul]

You could always just not watch the videos, ignore everything, and just be excited when it releases.....

[YoYo]

17 hours ago, JumpinK said:

Those "to be released soon" "coming soon" "almost ready for takeoff" teasers are becoming ridiculously disappointing and they are killing the hype for the strike eagle completely!

My "I can't wait to explore the cockpit for myself" feelings are already gone because of seeing all the stuff on youtube without having a chance to enjoy it on my own.
It's been about half a year now since razbam announced a "we hope to release it in 2022"
The whole first quarter of 2023 was nothing but teasers that just slowly but surely killed my anticipation for the mudhen.

I went from "cant wait for it" to "i hope my preorder-purchase wasn't wasted money"...

For now it's just like paying a prostitute for the whole number but getting a lapdance only.

 

The price pf pre order contains only the promise. Nothing new. It was that the model will be „few months later or sooner”. According me expect it in May. The date of release of EA will be given earlier.

[Shibbyland]

I suspect the recent post about it being ready soon is more a marketing tactic to boost a few more pre-orders from those who might be on the fence.

I'm trying to be a bit more discerning with my DCS purchases now that I own most modules. I will definitely be buying the F-15E at some point but as I posted above, I've got reservations when it comes to RAZBAM. It's true the 30% off is great at pre-order but I just have this feeling the early access release will be a bit more turbulent than we're used to.

It's not clear to me what weapons will be available at release or what state the back seat AI will be in.

If RAZBAM were to release more meaningful and reliable information, then I'll probably change my mind. 

As it stands, I prefer to use the money elsewhere and buy it closer to Christmas or spring next year when It'll likely have some sort of sale.

 

[YoYo]

1 hour ago, Shibbyland said:

It's not clear to me what weapons will be available at release or what state the back seat AI will be in.

I have to disappoint you, there won't be any AI like George, Petrovich or Jester on launch day of EA. They're not working on it at all right now.

It will be a long way for this. For sure, closer to the release there will be more hype, just like some youtubers will probably get it too before the launch day.

[Shibbyland]

44 minutes ago, YoYo said:

I have to disappoint you, there won't be any AI like George, Petrovich or Jester on launch day of EA. They're not working on it at all right now.

It will be a long way for this. For sure, closer to the release there will be more hype, just like some youtubers will probably get it too before the launch day.

Yea I thought that would be the case. I'm aware it's their intent to do their version of AI (TALON) but I expected it would be a way off. That's a deal breaker for me as I'm mainly single player focused and even in multiplayer, I don't tend to pair up for multi crew stuff. It's the exact reason I haven't bought the Mosquito yet either. How straightforward is it likely to be to run ground attacks from the pilot position only? Are we likely to find ourselves doing WSO stuff at a distance, jump into front seat to start the attack run then jump back into the WSO seat to drop the bomb, then jump back into the pilot seat to evade? I guess time will tell.

In terms of RAZBAM modules, I've got the M2000c, the Harrier and the MiG 19. I bought the M2000c a while after it's release and its really good but as I understand, it took a long time to get to that point. I can't comment much on the Harrier as I've barely used it. The MiG 19 is the only module I've bought that I really regretted buying but I'm more than happy with it now. It just seemed so half baked and it stayed that way for a while. Again, it's good now but it took so long to get that way.

For me, Heatblurs F-14 is the standard for multi-crew aircraft in DCS (JUST MY OPINION). The F-15E has a whole lot more systems than the Tomcat and I don't doubt that RAZBAM are up to the challenge but my previous experience with their products suggests it's going to be a long haul. 

I'll put the usual forum disclaimer here though: If you pre-ordered the module, I'm not critisising your purchase. This is only a discussion, don't go getting hurt feelings. With a bit of luck, developers peruse discussions like this and it gives some meaningful feedback of where some customers are at.

 

[Fromthedeep]

3 hours ago, Shibbyland said:

How straightforward is it likely to be to run ground attacks from the pilot position only? Are we likely to find ourselves doing WSO stuff at a distance, jump into front seat to start the attack run then jump back into the WSO seat to drop the bomb, then jump back into the pilot seat to evade? I guess time will tell.

That's absolutely not at all how the aircraft works. You'd do all that stuff from the pilot's seat.

[AhSoul]

4 hours ago, Shibbyland said:

Are we likely to find ourselves doing WSO stuff at a distance, jump into front seat to start the attack run then jump back into the WSO seat to drop the bomb, then jump back into the pilot seat to evade? I guess time will tell

 

You can do pretty much everything from the front seat. It's just a) easier to do some things from the back, as they have dedicated HOTAS for each pair of MFDs with shortcuts the pilot doesn't. and b) two pair of hands/eyes is generally better than one.

Soloing it should be fine....

[YoYo]

1 hour ago, Fromthedeep said:

That's absolutely not at all how the aircraft works. You'd do all that stuff from the pilot's seat.

Funny post, sorry. If what you write is true, why we have these two human places in Mudhen? You think that you are smarter than all MCDD/Boeing engineers  Think first, then write pretty please. The pilot has a large part of the handling, it's said that its functionality is 90% of the WSO but ... that's not how an airplane works, let alone a crew. 

[pii]

On 4/15/2023 at 12:42 AM, giullep said:

2 weeks

You are WAAAAYYYYY off, It's going to be 2 weeks.

 

On 4/15/2023 at 11:30 AM, AhSoul said:

You could always just not watch the videos, ignore everything, and just be excited when it releases.....

What fun is that?

[Letusg345]

1 hour ago, YoYo said:

Funny post, sorry. If what you write is true, why we have these two human places in Mudhen? You think that you are smarter than all MCDD/Boeing engineers  Think first, then write pretty please. The pilot has a large part of the handling, it's said that its functionality is 90% of the WSO but ... that's not how an airplane works, let alone a crew. 

What? From everything I've read, it sounds like you can do everything from the front seat of the F-15E, and AhSoul is right, as it has a two man crew for ease of operations. Also, insulting AhSoul doesn't add or grow the discussion, so in your own words, "Think first, then write pretty please."

[YoYo]

20 minutes ago, Letusg345 said:

What? From everything I've read, it sounds like you can do everything from the front seat of the F-15E, and AhSoul is right, as it has a two man crew for ease of operations. Also, insulting AhSoul doesn't add or grow the discussion, so in your own words, "Think first, then write pretty please."

Read his post carefully, I don't think you understand what he wrote and what I wrote too.

[Letusg345]

11 minutes ago, YoYo said:

Read his post carefully, I don't think you understand what he wrote and what I wrote too.

I realize I thought you were responding to someone else, but the same still applies. Fromthedeep said

 

3 hours ago, Fromthedeep said:

That's absolutely not at all how the aircraft works. You'd do all that stuff from the pilot's seat.

And you said

1 hour ago, YoYo said:

Funny post, sorry. If what you write is true, why we have these two human places in Mudhen? You think that you are smarter than all MCDD/Boeing engineers  Think first, then write pretty please. The pilot has a large part of the handling, it's said that its functionality is 90% of the WSO but ... that's not how an airplane works, let alone a crew. 

I still stand by what I said about being able to do everything from the front seat, and how discussions should and shouldn't look like. Did you think he said that the WSO wouldn't be able to release weapons? If so, you would be right, the WSO can do all of those things. But I don't think that was what he was getting at. 

[Fromthedeep]

7 hours ago, YoYo said:

why we have these two human places in Mudhen

That doesn't really matter for the purposes of discussing the capabilities and system logic/PVI of the aircraft in the context of DCS.

 

7 hours ago, YoYo said:

You think that you are smarter than all MCDD/Boeing engineers

Why are you lying? When did I say that I was smarter than Boeing engineers?

7 hours ago, YoYo said:

it's said that its functionality is 90% of the WSO but ... that's not how an airplane works, let alone a crew. 

That's exactly how the airplane works. You do not need to go back and forth between the seats to conduct an attack. That's categorically false. While in the real aircraft, the crew does in fact have to work together do successfully conduct such an attack, there's also plenty of things that you've probably never heard about in your life that real aircrew have to do and we can still easily forget about them in DCS and still be very effective in game.