correct as-is Concerns about G-Onset and Damage to wings

[LowRider88]

5 hours ago, PetRock said:

Oh... you can't use the AI Flight model to base any test on. Its widely known they use a much more simplified FM that is "generous" with the laws of physics.

I was curious if you had flown the same profile, in the F-5, before/after last patch. 

Has anyone else done so?

 

Hey PetRock,

I suppose I might need some clarification on what you mean by run, and profile.

I agree about the simplified FM, but that is my point.  If they are inaccurate, understood.  But they should scale across planes, so that a third gen plane should not fly with more capability than its forth gen successor.

But on the topic, there is no reason why we can't ask for improved SFM?  After all these years?  As I mentioned this affects AI opponents and wingmen.

[Snappy]

29 minutes ago, LowRider88 said:

Of course you can ask, however people have already asked for that for years , as well as for better AI decision-making.ED announced a new more precise FM for AI called GFM a while ago.

However at the speed that things usually get developed, realistically expect to wait another few years before it’s really implemented widely.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Snappy

[=475FG= Dawger]

6 hours ago, Snappy said:

Of course you can ask, however people have already asked for that for years , as well as for better AI decision-making.ED announced a new more precise FM for AI called GFM a while ago.

However at the speed that things usually get developed, realistically expect to wait another few years before it’s really implemented widely.

 

AI behavior has changed tremendously recently. They fly in a more realistic fashion at the higher skill levels and the lower skill levels aren’t quite as stupid as they were. Overall, a positive change although not quite ideal. 

[LowRider88]

7 hours ago, Snappy said:

Of course you can ask, however people have already asked for that for years , as well as for better AI decision-making.ED announced a new more precise FM for AI called GFM a while ago.

However at the speed that things usually get developed, realistically expect to wait another few years before it’s really implemented widely.

 

That is good to know.  However, I point out my findings as some may not be aware of the plane vs plane or skill level vs skill level differences.

[Snappy]

3 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

AI behavior has changed tremendously recently. They fly in a more realistic fashion at the higher skill levels and the lower skill levels aren’t quite as stupid as they were. Overall, a positive change although not quite ideal. 

Are you referring to their flight model or to their "decision making?" with regards to the change you noticed?
For the latter (the "I" in AI) , I find them as stupid as ever. Droning around in big circles, only changing between horizontal and vertical circles.Also you can shoot tracers right past their canopy or wingtips and still they don't jink or change plane of motion. They just keep going on the same previous trajectory which just makes them easier to kill.

As for the FM, I have yet to see an AI plane stall or not make a miraculous speedy recovery from low energy state. 
In my opininon they have a long long way to go before they get semi- realisitic or catch up to the unname-able competiton.

However maybe we should argue in a seperate dedicated thread.The way ED forum management operates lately, especially in regards to criticism , I expect see this thread being "sanitized" any day now, due to going "off-topic".

Edited January 7, 2022 by Snappy

[jackmckay]

This is weird

 

[deeleyer]

That slam on the stick after firing gives something to think.

 

[LowRider88]

 

2 hours ago, deeleyer said:

That slam on the stick after firing gives something to think.

 

This definitely does not happen in single player.  Seems to be a multiplayer bug.  Some say it is due to accumulate damage after spawning.  Would be good to know how many spawns prior to this.  Video poster also mentioned he was shot at.

Plane should not be flyable after the wings are gone.  No ailerons for rolling, and no lift.

[MAXsenna]

8 hours ago, LowRider88 said:

 

This definitely does not happen in single player.  Seems to be a multiplayer bug.  Some say it is due to accumulate damage after spawning.  Would be good to know how many spawns prior to this.  Video poster also mentioned he was shot at.

Plane should not be flyable after the wings are gone.  No ailerons for rolling, and no lift.

I can easily rip off the wings and continue to fly in SP if that's what you mean?  

[LowRider88]

2 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

I can easily rip off the wings and continue to fly in SP if that's what you mean?  

Yep, that's what I meant.  How did you do it?  Can you post a vid?  I can try to reproduce on my end if you show me how.

[MAXsenna]

2 hours ago, LowRider88 said:

Yep, that's what I meant.  How did you do it?  Can you post a vid?  I can try to reproduce on my end if you show me how.

I was testing some the black box/flickering bug, so I just flew a lap and by accident pulled a little hard on the stick. Didn't really realise what had happened but the plane wanted to roll right. Noticed the loss of wings in F2. But it was harder to fly though. 

I'll see if I can make a video. 

[Flappie]

The controllable wingless F-5E-3 bug has already been reported.

[MAXsenna]

4 hours ago, LowRider88 said:

Yep, that's what I meant.  How did you do it?  Can you post a vid?  I can try to reproduce on my end if you show me how.

Right.

No weapons. In track one. I pull the stick "slowly" two times, and the wings don't rip, even at 10+ Gs. The third time I yank the stick, and they immediately come off.

Second track. Is just breaking the wings immediately.

Video is first track.

 

F-5E - Wingbreak Test-2.trk F-5E - Wingbreak Test-1.trk

[LowRider88]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

Right.

No weapons. In track one. I pull the stick "slowly" two times, and the wings don't rip, even at 10+ Gs. The third time I yank the stick, and they immediately come off.

Second track. Is just breaking the wings immediately.

Video is first track.

 

F-5E - Wingbreak Test-2.trk 984.85 kB · 0 downloads F-5E - Wingbreak Test-1.trk 857.4 kB · 0 downloads

Thanks MAXsenna, I  will try the same this weekend.  Although I requested, I'm sure I'm not the only one though who will also try.

[LowRider88]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

Right.

No weapons. In track one. I pull the stick "slowly" two times, and the wings don't rip, even at 10+ Gs. The third time I yank the stick, and they immediately come off.

Second track. Is just breaking the wings immediately.

Video is first track.

 

F-5E - Wingbreak Test-2.trk 984.85 kB · 0 downloads F-5E - Wingbreak Test-1.trk 857.4 kB · 0 downloads

Your video is interesting also for another reason.  You also get the flashing black half screen (immediately after your take off) as I see when flying certain planes and maps.  Not sure if that has been raised as a bug yet.

[MAXsenna]

9 minutes ago, LowRider88 said:

Your video is interesting also for another reason.  You also get the flashing black half screen (immediately after your take off) as I see when flying certain planes and maps.  Not sure if that has been raised as a bug yet.

Of thank you! But it's been reported.

[LowRider88]

On 1/26/2022 at 2:15 PM, MAXsenna said:

Right.

No weapons. In track one. I pull the stick "slowly" two times, and the wings don't rip, even at 10+ Gs. The third time I yank the stick, and they immediately come off.

Second track. Is just breaking the wings immediately.

Video is first track.

 

F-5E - Wingbreak Test-2.trk 984.85 kB · 2 downloads F-5E - Wingbreak Test-1.trk 857.4 kB · 2 downloads

Still plan to try this out.  Just taking a break from DCS to catch the Winter Games.  Should be trying this in a week or two.

[Tiger-II]

Don't forget there is sustained vs. instantaneous g loading. If you "yank" the stick, you're imparting very high instantaneous loads on the airframe, and it could be this that's breaking it.

The g meter can only show sustained g loadings. It doesn't react *that* quickly to g.

[=475FG= Dawger]

31 minutes ago, Tiger-II said:

Don't forget there is sustained vs. instantaneous g loading. If you "yank" the stick, you're imparting very high instantaneous loads on the airframe, and it could be this that's breaking it.

The g meter can only show sustained g loadings. It doesn't react *that* quickly to g.

The F-5 is now very fragile. If you introduce ANY (and I do mean the tiniest amount) roll input at 8 G or above, the wings will come off. Extremely silly but it doesn't look like it is going to be changed.

Since I fly almost exclusively guns and rear aspect missiles only MP servers, I am very much looking forward to the F-4 so I can put the poor, frail F-5 in the retirement home.

Such a shame to screw up such an enjoyable module in such an ignorant fashion.

And don't bother with the "realism" arguments.

[cofcorpse]

2 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

The F-5 is now very fragile. If you introduce ANY (and I do mean the tiniest amount) roll input at 8 G or above, the wings will come off. Extremely silly but it doesn't look like it is going to be changed.

Could you confirm this rather strong statement? I think that you are wrong and I provide this track. 9-10G roll with a stick up to the limit.

F5_9G_roll.trk

[DmitriKozlowsky]

On 12/5/2021 at 2:02 PM, ElvisDaKang said:

Don't Sneeze on the F-5s Wings.....................they have become porcelain. 

 

I mean REALLY ??

?????? What u talkin about? Its fine. Its a 7G airframe. Use Aleron limiter sparringly. Every aircraft has G and gross weight limit. Put bombs on F-5 wings, now its a 5.5 G limit. Two Sidewinders on tips, now its a 6.5G limit. External fuel tanks limit to 5 G when full. 6G when empty or they may detach and damage wing.

[addman]

Just because you can pull 10 g's in an airframe doesn't mean it can take it structurally. Remember, older airframes have no flybywire that limits whatever you put in the stick, older airframes generally don't have as high G-tolerances as more modern airframes do. Just because you can pull it doesn't mean it can take it.

Edited March 17, 2022 by addman

[=475FG= Dawger]

23 hours ago, cofcorpse said:

Could you confirm this rather strong statement? I think that you are wrong and I provide this track. 9-10G roll with a stick up to the limit.

F5_9G_roll.trk 30.9 kB · 3 downloads

Thank you for posting your track.

I think I may have some additional insight into why this is happening.

Your track appears to be very precise control movements resulting in the ability to apply full roll deflection (up to the limiter) at high G levels.

So we know that we should have the ability to do this, which is good news.

My question is in relation to the hardware and control tuning you used to fly this track?

With my setup, I am seeing unintentional elevator inputs when the aileron deflection limit is reached, resulting in additional load and subsequent catastrophic wing failure.

This also would explain why some people experience a very fragile wing and others seem to have no issues.

I would like to track down the root cause.

Again, thanks for providing a much needed clue.

[cofcorpse]

36 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

Thank you for posting your track.

I think I may have some additional insight into why this is happening.

Your track appears to be very precise control movements resulting in the ability to apply full roll deflection (up to the limiter) at high G levels.

So we know that we should have the ability to do this, which is good news.

My question is in relation to the hardware and control tuning you used to fly this track?

With my setup, I am seeing unintentional elevator inputs when the aileron deflection limit is reached, resulting in additional load and subsequent catastrophic wing failure.

This also would explain why some people experience a very fragile wing and others seem to have no issues.

I would like to track down the root cause.

Again, thanks for providing a much needed clue.

I'm using Thrustmaster Warthog. I always set 3-4 deadzone for pitch and roll axis. And I was trying to make a clean roll stick movement.

But I think the main reason I did not break wings is that F-5E is loaded only with 50% of the fuel and two missiles. This is the mass after which the acceleration limitation decreases. And with a greater mass it is possible that wing will break in a roll at lower G-load than in the track.

[=475FG= Dawger]

4 hours ago, cofcorpse said:

I'm using Thrustmaster Warthog. I always set 3-4 deadzone for pitch and roll axis. And I was trying to make a clean roll stick movement.

But I think the main reason I did not break wings is that F-5E is loaded only with 50% of the fuel and two missiles. This is the mass after which the acceleration limitation decreases. And with a greater mass it is possible that wing will break in a roll at lower G-load than in the track.

The lower fuel weight is certainly a big factor. In MP server will usually enter our first engagement with much more internal fuel than 50% and the wings come off very easily. They will fail above 8 G with very little roll input.

However, the uncommanded or unintentional additional elevator isn't helping things, no matter the weight. Once I determine the cause and solution, I will revisit this thread.