Offset fuel probe tricks?

[Gorn557]

Hello everyone:

I've been spending the last several weeks putting the Tomcat through its paces, but I'm having a bit of an unusual problem with AAR. 

Most of the posts I see regarding AAR help basically boil down to good formation flying. I think I am actually kind of OK at this and once I'm connected I generally have no problem maintaining the connection. But for whatever reason the offset location of the probe is really throwing me for a loop and I have a lot of trouble consistently getting it in the right spot. I've become expert at making a perfect, trimmed, stable 2-kt approach...exactly 1 foot to the left or right or above or below where I'm supposed to be. And of course if I look at the basket then my approach gets all messed up and I end up chasing it. 

 

Advice I've seen regarding sightlines is usually more about keeping formation (e.g. keep the engine pylon in one spot) but isn't really helping me with probe capture. When I do capture it, I feel like it's pure luck that I was in the right spot. Any tips for what I can aim for to get more consistent contact? 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Gorn557

[RustBelt]

When you capture, look straight ahead and find something on the tanker to match with something on the front windscreen. Then just go for that, let the basket do it's thing. 

[BreaKKer]

Use your peripheral vison to get it in the basket. If you keep your eyes on the basket pod itself, it usually helps. Make sure your wing are in bomb mode, as it reduces roll rate and increases stability. Whenever you think about making a stick movement, half that stick movement. Another thing you can do to help overcorrecting, is see how little of stick movement you can do to get the basket. Hold your stick with your thumb and index finger and just barely make adjustments. 

[Gorn557]

3 hours ago, RustBelt said:

When you capture, look straight ahead and find something on the tanker to match with something on the front windscreen. Then just go for that, let the basket do it's thing. 

Well this is the part I'm having trouble with. Go for what specifically?

55 minutes ago, BreaKKer said:

Use your peripheral vison to get it in the basket. If you keep your eyes on the basket pod itself, it usually helps. Make sure your wing are in bomb mode, as it reduces roll rate and increases stability. Whenever you think about making a stick movement, half that stick movement. Another thing you can do to help overcorrecting, is see how little of stick movement you can do to get the basket. Hold your stick with your thumb and index finger and just barely make adjustments. 

I've got that part. It's not control I'm struggling with, it's alignment.

[draconus]

2 hours ago, Gorn557 said:

It's not control I'm struggling with, it's alignment.

Put 30 on the hose and keep it there I heard this tip some time ago and it's mostly true. I don't use it but maybe it'll help you.

Alignment is pretty hard on a 2D screen. With practice you'll burn that image into your head and it'll get easier. Don't rush it. Always go slowly straight in with minimal corrections. When you see it doesn't align well, you can't save it by controls or it'll get messy when you try. Just back your throttle a bit and approach again as straight in and level as possible.

btw: It's always controls problem - if it wasn't you'd just correct and align without trouble.

[scoobie]

2 hours ago, draconus said:

Put 30 on the hose and keep it there

Me English no comprende that, meaning nicht verstehen at all. What does this mean?

 

Don't worry, @Gorn557 - you're not alone! I'm having the same issue in the Tomcat. (Ha! That was very helpful, wasn't it? )
On a good day I can be smooth as butter, approaching the basket sloooow and steady, happy with myself, grinning like a chimp... only to miss the basket by one foot. And I'm always surprised when it happens, I always think I was nicely aligned in the first place.
That's what you're talking about here, aren't you?

Apparently my (and your) brain thinks the probe is somewhere else than it really is. The charm of pancake simming
I guess we just need more practice until you (and I) learn how exactly the basket should "travel" across the screen to find the probe. Some aircraft are pretty straightforward - Hornet, A-4, M-2000 - the probe is where you think it is. (Don't know about the Harrier, though.) In A-4 I can even lean my head forward/right to check where the tip of the probe is, then I say "OK, so it's there", somehow memorize it and then just put the thing in the thing without looking again. Alas, Tomcat is somehow mysterious in this regard (at least for some folks, like us).

Personally I never use "tanker picture" for alignment (in the sense like "this part of the tanker should 'touch' the canopy bow" etc.). The tanker is somewhat far away, there are 3 or 4 different types of tankers, all/most have two sides for refuelling and I'm using TrackIR, my head can move etc. "Tanker picture" method may work for some, but doesn't for me. I insist on using the Force, as Jester suggests occasionally.

Probably "just more practice" is the answer, maybe there's no magic formula for that?

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by scoobie

[draconus]

41 minutes ago, scoobie said:

Me English no comprende that, meaning nicht verstehen at all. What does this mean?

Look at the HUD - like here:

[scoobie]

Alright! I get it now! Damn, when you look at the screenshot you're thinking "What can be more obvious than that? There's the thing and the other thing - just look!", but when doing it I miss the basket suspiciously often. OK, Chistmas is coming, there will be some free time to try "put 30 on the hose", thanks @draconus!

[DD_Fenrir]

Three things that I found helped me hit the basket more regularly:

1. Anticipate - Make corrections sooner rather than later (they'll be smaller); sounds easier than it is, I know, but part of this is learning to trust your judgement. I found when I analysed my thought processes that I would suspect a correction was required but tended to wait for a larger visual clue to confirm... by which time it was too late. More often than not that initial suspicion was correct, so trust your instinct and get a small correction in the moment you even suspect it's required.

2. Many small corrections > one big one - when making corrections rather than try to get the exact control displacement required - which is tough to judge - for the stick, I started to use multiple small and fast pulses of the control column; if I was low on the basket I might put three very small but fast pulses of aft stick and then assess; maybe three more, no too much, 2 quick tiny pulses of forward stick now to get it back under control before I start to PIO too badly.

3. Alternate the dimensions - At first I found it easier to work alternately one dimension at a time; do a pitch correction, then a lateral correction; then a pitch correction then a lateral correction, etc. Now, if the tanking is going well, I don't consciously need to do this so much but on those occasions that I'm having a bad day (or night) it's actually a useful process to revert to, plus it breaks down the task in to a couple of more achievable steps to allow you to work your way in progressively.

 

[Home Fries]

Taken from my original post at Mudspike:

Here are some recommendations I use:

1. Set the HUD to enroute mode, then move the seat down so that the heading tape is in-line with the piece of metal sticking out on the right prison bar.
2. Set the wings to 55 degree/manual to take the maneuvering flaps out of the equation. This prevents uncommanded changes in lift and also reduces the momentum associated with the fully-forward wings.
3. When at pre-contact, line up the basket with the HUD waterline. This is the only time to eyeball the basket. Trim to hold altitude at matching airspeed. You can also use Autopilot-altitude hold to trim up, then release autopilot. Remember: if you ain’t cheatin’, you ain’t tryin’ hard enough!
4. Line the refueling pod up with the right 1/3 of the right side of the pitch ladder.
5. Use slight rudder and very slight pitch changes to move the aircraft relative to the refueling pod.
6. When you move forward to contact, the top of the refueling pod should touch the top of the canopy rail. This is where moving the seat down really makes a difference.
7. While holding station, keep the canopy rail between the wing root and the tail of the tanker (closer to the wing root if all else is equal).

This pic is to illustrate what I mean by putting the heading tape level with the metal piece. As I had to use both hands to get an ALT+PrintScreen, this is not a good example of station keeping.  I’m actually high and behind.

1920×1080 829 KB

 

Another thing: I’ve found that once I’m on the basket, I find it useful to trim down 1 or 2 increments. I’m not sure why this is, except possibly to trim out the unconscious desire to climb as I’m looking up at the tanker

[Jayhawk1971]

Or just watch 104th Maverick's great video tutorial on the subject. 

Edit: oh, and the most important thing IMO: don't overthink it. Baby steps.  

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Jayhawk1971

[Callsign JoNay]

Just lean right and look at the basket out the side window right of the jail bars. You kind of have to look at the basket when connecting to the S-3 anyway, the rest of it is hidden behind the canopy bow. Contrary to popular opinion it is possible to look at the basket without getting into PIO.

[Mud]

Yeah, practice practice practice.  I can refuel quite easily in the Viper, Hornet and Hog, but the F-14A especially I stuggle with.  At some point I thought I'd never get it.
But never give up, just stop as soon as you get frustrated and take a break.  For me, it really helps telling Jester to shut his mouth while doing it as well

 

[Jayhawk1971]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb Mud:

Yeah, practice practice practice.  I can refuel quite easily in the Viper, Hornet and Hog, but the F-14A especially I stuggle with.  At some point I thought I'd never get it.
But never give up, just stop as soon as you get frustrated and take a break.  For me, it really helps telling Jester to shut his mouth while doing it as well

 

Funny, for me it's the other way round: I struggle with the Viper, because I find it to be incredibly sluggish, especially with the controls dampening coming on as soon as you open the probe door (also, the breakout deadzone isn't helping, either) whereas the Tomcat reacts immediately to tiny inputs.  

[Mud]

37 minutes ago, Jayhawk1971 said:

Funny, for me it's the other way round: I struggle with the Viper, because I find it to be incredibly sluggish, especially with the controls dampening coming on as soon as you open the probe door (also, the breakout deadzone isn't helping, either) whereas the Tomcat reacts immediately to tiny inputs.  

This has gotten me baffled as well.  I have sees other people reporting just that.

I general I find with the boom, you just get in position and the boom operator does the rest.  With the basket, being in position alone is just not enough yet.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Mud
Typo

[Home Fries]

On 12/20/2021 at 10:33 AM, Callsign JoNay said:

Just lean right and look at the basket out the side window right of the jail bars. You kind of have to look at the basket when connecting to the S-3 anyway, the rest of it is hidden behind the canopy bow. Contrary to popular opinion it is possible to look at the basket without getting into PIO.

I look at the basket all the time.  I just make sure not to focus on the basket.  Focusing on the basket is like focusing on the road just in front of you while you're driving instead of looking at the horizon.  Or like looking at the thing you want to avoid instead of looking at your way around the thing you want to avoid.

The conventional wisdom to focus on your formation sight picture is still good.  Take glances at the basket, and be aware of it with your peripheral vision.

[Home Fries]

Also, some differences between the F-14A and F-14B:

Conventional wisdom will have the F-14A easier to get onto the basket than the F-14B because you don't have to be as touchy with the throttle.  Depending on your comfort with flying formation in the F-14B, this may or may not be the case.  However, once you are on the basket, it is much harder to stay on the basket with the F-14A.

With the F-14B, the engines are more powerful and more responsive, so if you see yourself falling back you can apply throttle, then immediately pull back and then move the throttle slightly forward again to put it back where it needs to be.  A quick motion once you see yourself fall back is all it takes to stay in position.

With the F-14A and the TF-30 spool-up time, if you see yourself falling back, it's probably already too late.  You need to be aggressively holding position, making anticipating throttle changes before you see relative motion between you and the tanker.  For example, if you keep your canopy rail between the wing root and the tail, you may want to keep the sight picture of the canopy rail on the wing root, then apply corrections if the latter half of the rail slides back to the fuselage.  By the time the engine spools up, you should be still ok to stay on the basket.  Also, you need to apply more aggressive throttle movements with the TF-30, but at the same time be careful not to ham-fist the throttle to cause the dreaded compressor stall.  It's a balancing act for sure.

Now if you do see yourself falling back (this applies to both F-14 variants), immediately make an aggressive throttle correction so that you can get the probe back into the basket before the backet falls back into the slipstream.  Re-plugging with a basket right in front of you is much easier than repositioning to a basket in the slipstream.

[Callsign JoNay]

2 hours ago, Home Fries said:

I look at the basket all the time.  I just make sure not to focus on the basket. 

I focus on it like a laser when I AAR in the Cat, and it works out fine for me. I only transition to focusing on the tanker after I have it plugged.

 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1240541499

Edited December 22, 2021 by Callsign JoNay

[Home Fries]

23 hours ago, Callsign JoNay said:

I focus on it like a laser when I AAR in the Cat, and it works out fine for me. I only transition to focusing on the tanker after I have it plugged.

 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1240541499

 

well done!