ECM transmit switch positions

[Dannyvandelft]

From what I understand, position 1 and 2 are "activate when locked" and position 3 is on constantly,

 

What's the difference between 1 and 2?

 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

 

[TEOMOOSE]

1 minute ago, Dannyvandelft said:

 

From what I understand, position 1 and 2 are "activate when locked" and position 3 is on constantly,

 

What's the difference between 1 and 2?

 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

 

 

When XMIT is in Position 1 we have Radar Priority. When in Radar Priority and the jammer is transmitting and ownship radar and HARM/HTS performance is reduced by 40%. - > this called SPJ or self protect jamming.
To activate SPJ, set CMDS to semi (or auto, not recommended) and press cms aft short. CMS aft will set the system from standby to active and will automatically transmit when you are locked by a radar. Pressing cms forward will launch the selected cmds profile. The system will go back to standby mode, each time a radar had been jammed, and you have to give consent to the jammer to standby mode.

When XMIT is in Position 2 we have ECM Priority. When in ECM Priority, the FCR and HARM/HTS are silenced unless an AIM-120 is the active weapon. In this case, it behaves the same as Position 1. - > same as Position 1.

Position 3 is an active jamming. Set CMDS to man mode and press cms aft to turn on or cms right turn off. When activated it will turn off the radar "NO RAD" on the hud.

amber S - standby mode CMS right
green A - active mode CMS aft
blue T - transmitting

 

[Ebphoto]

Great explanation! Thanks for posting this since it’s all a little confusing.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

So is “silenced” the same as “reduced by 40%” and when Aim120s are selected is Rdr and HTS reduced by 40% or silenced? Thanks

[TEOMOOSE]

 

31 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

So is “silenced” the same as “reduced by 40%” and when Aim120s are selected is Rdr and HTS reduced by 40% or silenced? Thanks

Silenced meaning it's turned off completely, not to be confused with reduced performance. But if you shot a amraam and supporting that missile in position 2, the system will act as position one.

So if you are in position 2 and you have not locked by a enemy radar, you can launch a missile, but once you are locked by the enemy radar and ecm start jamming it will automatically act as position 1 since you have a missile in the air.

But if you cannot launch a missile before you get locked by enemy radar, your own radar go silenced in position 2, and you have to manually turn it off, with cms right in order to use your own radar to target the bad guys. I think for a2a position 1 would be a better option unless I'm rtb.

Edited December 24, 2021 by TEOMOOSE

[Bricux]

And what about these ECM band buttons? Somebody have any description of which bands are now usable and what is FRM, SPL (I guess self protection jammer)

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

And what about these ECM band buttons? Somebody have any description of which bands are now usable and what is FRM, SPL (I guess self protection jammer)

Spudkocker explains FRM and SPL at the 6min mark in his video here -

FRM (Formation) - combined jamming strength with wingmen’s pods in close formation
SPL (Special) - a special type of jamming algorithm for specific emissions encountered

Both are not implemented yet.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

 
Silenced meaning it's turned off completely, not to be confused with reduced performance. But if you shot a amraam and supporting that missile in position 2, the system will act as position one.
So if you are in position 2 and you have not locked by a enemy radar, you can launch a missile, but once you are locked by the enemy radar and ecm start jamming it will automatically act as position 1 since you have a missile in the air.
But if you cannot launch a missile before you get locked by enemy radar, your own radar go silenced in position 2, and you have to manually turn it off, with cms right in order to use your own radar to target the bad guys. I think for a2a position 1 would be a better option unless I'm rtb.

Thanks. So XMIT 1 allows some (60%) radar usage. Does that mean AMRAAMs fired in 1 will not be as reliable in terms of locking and tracking till impact?

[TEOMOOSE]

4 hours ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Thanks. So XMIT 1 allows some (60%) radar usage. Does that mean AMRAAMs fired in 1 will not be as reliable in terms of locking and tracking till impact?

Correct! Anything that making significant maneuvers. Head on collision intercepts are usually fine.  

[Harker]

Anyone has any idea about the difference that positions 1 and 2 have in the effectiveness of the jammer? Does 2 offer improved SPJ performance, to offset the cost of completely inhibiting radar usage? With the current implementation, why wouldn't I want to always use position 1?

I mean in DCS, not IRL. The IRL explanation of the system is pretty clear.

[TEOMOOSE]

Well It depends on your mission and the type of threat you are encountering.

There is some explanation above in this thread.

[TEOMOOSE]

Since position 2 completely silence both radar and hts meaning it's off, you can't use them while you are jamming. This probably a good way to passively jamming an area while the strike package doing the mission.

[QuiGon]

5 hours ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Thanks. So XMIT 1 allows some (60%) radar usage. Does that mean AMRAAMs fired in 1 will not be as reliable in terms of locking and tracking till impact?

1 hour ago, TEOMOOSE said:

Correct! Anything that making significant maneuvers. Head on collision intercepts are usually fine.  

Wags on youtube:

Quote

For SPJ Position 1 and 2, we hope to later enable Radar Priority for Position 1 and Jammer Priority for Position 2 (also for the Hornet), but it is not possible currently. For now, Position 1 and 2 behave the same as Radar in Priority.

 

Edited December 25, 2021 by QuiGon

[TEOMOOSE]

7 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

Wags on youtube:

 

 

Wags on the forums

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/209147-viper-mini-updates/?do=findComment&comment=4848305

It's released in to open beta and it's a working.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

3 hours ago, TEOMOOSE said:

Wags on the forums

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/209147-viper-mini-updates/?do=findComment&comment=4848305

It's released in to open beta and it's a working.

Thanks! I'll just paste it here for quick reference on this thread:

Quote

Dear all,

Since I created the Viper ECM video, we have been able to enable separate SPJ responses for the XMIT switch in Position 1 and 2. We hope to include this in the next update, but it will depend on testing results (update: seems it's working in open beta).

• When XMIT is in Position 1 we have Radar Priority. When in Radar Priority and the jammer is transmitting and ownship radar and HARM/HTS performance is reduced by 40%.

• When XMIT is in Position 2 we have ECM Priority. When in ECM Priority, the FCR and HARM/HTS are silenced unless an AIM-120 is the active weapon. In this case, it behaves the same as Position 1. 

The overall jamming effect on hostile radars has also been substantially increased. We plan to also implement this for the Hornet's jammer, but I do not have a time estimate yet. Electonic attack will be playing a bigger role in DCS in 2022.

Kind regards,

Wags

 

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[Harker]

Well It depends on your mission and the type of threat you are encountering.
There is some explanation above in this thread.

I'm sorry if I'm missing something in this thread, but I don't see any info on why Pos 2 would be preferable to Pos 1, in the context of DCS. Is the SPJ working better in Pos 2? Why wouldn't I choose 60% radar range + SPJ with Pos 1, over 0% radar range and SPJ, (assuming the AMRAAM is not selected, I get that Pos 2 + AMRAAM is effectively the same as Pos 1)? Or just go Pos 1 + RF Quiet if you want to specifically silence your radar while transmitting with your SPJ (as should be the correct mech if you specifically want your radar to be silent).

Again, only in the context of DCS.

[QuiGon]

15 hours ago, TEOMOOSE said:

Wags on the forums

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/209147-viper-mini-updates/?do=findComment&comment=4848305

It's released in to open beta and it's a working.

Thanks! I missed that somehow.

[WHOGX5]

2 hours ago, Harker said:

I'm sorry if I'm missing something in this thread, but I don't see any info on why Pos 2 would be preferable to Pos 1, in the context of DCS. Is the SPJ working better in Pos 2? Why wouldn't I choose 60% radar range + SPJ with Pos 1, over 0% radar range and SPJ, (assuming the AMRAAM is not selected, I get that Pos 2 + AMRAAM is effectively the same as Pos 1)? Or just go Pos 1 + RF Quiet if you want to specifically silence your radar while transmitting with your SPJ (as should be the correct mech if you specifically want your radar to be silent).

Again, only in the context of DCS.

It's not about wanting to silence your radar but rather it's about diverting power from your radar so you can squeeze more power into the ECM pod. So your options are to do some half decent jamming while being able to use your radar/HTS or jamming with the absolute maximum power output available to you but not being able to use the FCR/HTS at the same time.

[Harker]

It's not about wanting to silence your radar but rather it's about diverting power from your radar so you can squeeze more power into the ECM pod. So your options are to do some half decent jamming while being able to use your radar/HTS or jamming with the absolute maximum power output available to you but not being able to use the FCR/HTS at the same time.

Actually it's not, IRL it's about which frequency bands (channels) the jammer is allowed to operate on. Hence my question, since we don't have frequency bands in DCS, what's the difference in ECM effectiveness between Pos 1 and Pos 2? Shorter lock/burn-through range? Limited/infinite/higher numbers that a lock can be broken?

Based on the literature I've read on the subject and, it is my understanding that Pos 1 (Pos 2 +AMRAAM)/Radar priority would allow it to operate only outside the channels the radar is currently operating on, so it might be less effective/useless against a hostile radar on these frequency bands. From what I understand, the FCR should be minimally affected by the jammer and the jammer should be limited to operate around the FCR. Since we don't have different radar channels in DCS, this compromising effect is instead represented as a 40% radar range penalty.

Pos 2/Jammer priority allows the jammer to operate on any channels it wants to, potentially jamming your own radar if it's operating on the same channels or more likely, forcing the FCR to automatically change channels, potentially messing up its effectiveness, especially against another jamming target. The SPJ would be at its max effectiveness here, with the radar operating "around" the jammer.

It'd actually make more sense to have 90% perf. radar + 60% jammer perf. for Pos 1 and 50% radar perf. + 100% jammer perf. for Pos 2.

That's why I'm asking. I understand how the real system is supposed to work, I don't understand how the difference between Pos 1 and Pos 2 in DCS, because in my understanding, ECM is an on/off flag in DCS. Unless there's no difference now and it'll be important later, if DCS simulates any sort of EW.

[TheBigTatanka]

Sounds like we need some empirical data to see if pos. 2 does a better job of denying or breaking lock than pos. 1. I'm a little hesitant to invest that time until a few patches down the road, as I'm sure this stuff will change.

Until we get that info, I'm taking the approach of (for air to air) using POS. 1 in SEMI and standby until I need to either notch/exit on launch and decide, or violate MAR. So, basically outside of MAR -- I'm leaving it off.

For surface attack, I'm also using POS. 1 / SEMI / Standby in any scenarios where i want to use my FCR or HTS. Can turn it to active if MUD.

Once I've located a SAM site in the TGP and creates a mark point, then i can turn on POS 3 and get ready to shoot a harm or charge in with a bomb and have the benefit of the noise jammer (which Redkite's video says is the most effective against SAM sites).

Anyone else have some "best practices" for using this stuff?

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[SCPanda]

Question: when in pos 1 and my mode switch is in semi, I use CMS aft to change the ECM from standy to active, the jet automaticallly releases a few chaff (5 I think). Anyway to stop thet jet from automatically releasing chaff? Cuz it's not the CMS program I have set up and I don't want to waste chaff when I want to change ECM from standby to active. It also happens after I use CMS right to change ECM from active to standby, and I presse CMS aft again to turn ECM to active. 

[Frederf]

The SEMI/AUTO response is up to the MDF. That would be a discussion between you and the EW officer.

The only way I see to totally disable chaff response is to turn off the chaff switch on the CMDS panel. Physical countermeasures and jammer share consent for semi/auto operation. EWS is designed to operate as a holistic system with coordination between the chaff and jammer. You can limit it to a single response cycle by use of the bingo chaff setting. It will dispense once and then not again until consent is reissued by CMS aft (in DCS you have to cycle the dispenser switch).

I was thinking you could unlink the RWR with the RWR switch but then you wouldn't get any ALQ response (at least not RWR-prompted) plus it doesn't seem to unlink the RWR in DCS anyway.

Be aware that CMS aft/right isn't turning the jammer on (emission). You're only giving it permission to radiate if and when it deems appropriate. The ENBL light on the panel just lets you know that the jammer is allowed to radiate but not that it is.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

8 months later....

Don't mind if I resurrect this old thread. Using latest Open Beta (14 Aug 2022).

When in AUTO and XMIT1, I can have FCR when the ECM is transmitting (Ts are lit). If I move the switch to XMIT2 (ECM is still transmitting), I lose FCR which is correct I gather. But when I move the switch back to XMIT1 (ECM is still transmitting), I cannot get back FCR even if I switch ECM to STBY (all Ss lit) unless I switch ECM off. Seems I have to wait for ECM transmitting to end first, then flip the switch from XMIT1 to XMIT2 to get back FCR, then back to XMIT1 (I want to remain in XMIT1). It's as if the logic got stuck in XMIT2. Is this intended or a bug/WIP?

Also, to have FCR in XMIT2 with AIM-120 "active", what are the conditions? Must the AIM-120 be in flight tracking a target BEFORE ECM transmitting starts?

TIA 

Edited August 14, 2022 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[skywalker22]

1 hour ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

8 months later....

Don't mind if I resurrect this old thread. Using latest Open Beta (14 Aug 2022).

When in AUTO and XMIT1, I can have FCR when the ECM is transmitting (Ts are lit). If I move the switch to XMIT2 (ECM is still transmitting), I lose FCR which is correct I gather. But when I move the switch back to XMIT1 (ECM is still transmitting), I cannot get back FCR even if I switch ECM to STBY (all Ss lit) unless I switch ECM off. Seems I have to wait for ECM transmitting to end first, then flip the switch from XMIT1 to XMIT2 to get back FCR, then back to XMIT1 (I want to remain in XMIT1). It's as if the logic got stuck in XMIT2. Is this intended or a bug/WIP?

Also, to have FCR in XMIT2 with AIM-120 "active", what are the conditions? Must the AIM-120 be in flight tracking a target BEFORE ECM transmitting starts?

TIA 

 

Yep, tested what you are saying, and you are correct. 

For the 1st time when I went from XMIT2 to XMIT1, FCR started working, but for the 2nd time it did not. I had to switch off ECM to use the radar (Stand By does not turn off jamming transmition in this case as well!). All on replay and track.

As far as all manuals say, when having XMIT knob to 1, FCR should operate normally. Or am I missing something, maybe the proximity of the bandit(s) and ECM constantly transmitting (you hear that constant beeping sound) & does not allow FCR to work? Or is simply a bug?

f16_ECM_issue_XMIT2.trk

If anyone else confirms it, we can open a new thread under Bugs, so it can be looked into it by ED team.

Edited August 14, 2022 by skywalker22

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

1 hour ago, skywalker22 said:

Yep, tested what you are saying, and you are correct. 

For the 1st time when I went from XMIT2 to XMIT1, FCR started working, but for the 2nd time it did not. I had to switch off ECM to use the radar (Stand By does not turn off jamming transmition in this case as well!). All on replay and track.

As far as all manuals say, when having XMIT knob to 1, FCR should operate normally. Or am I missing something, maybe the proximity of the bandit(s) and ECM constantly transmitting (you hear that constant beeping sound) & does not allow FCR to work? Or is simply a bug?

f16_ECM_issue_XMIT2.trk 1.03 MB · 0 downloads

If anyone else confirms it, we can open a new thread under Bugs, so it can be looked into it by ED team.

 

Sounds like a switch logic oversight?

On a related note, in all my testings, CMS Aft in SEMI/AUTO will ONLY dispense chaff (as it sees fit) and never any flares, and it never uses any of the selected PRGMs (1-4). I understand this is because the onboard systems do not detect IR missiles and MWS is also not equipped in this F16 block. However, Betty will still say "Chaff! Flares!" and also in some tutorials "flares" are still mentioned with CMS Aft. I also wonder how the chaff program is determined by the system in DCS, or perhaps it is just a basic chaff program that is always the same (I did not count them).