ww2 plane takeoff behaviour

[gordonvembu]

i am a long time, since Jane's ww2 fighters, circa 1998, flight sim enthusiast.

this is the oddest takeoff prop modelling i've ever experienced.

i am all to familiar with most ww2 era planes pulling left but never experienced a complete shift to opposite torque when more throttle is applied.

any thoughts, criticisms are welcome, i just want to suss this out from both a theoretical and ingame competency issue.

thnx... 

[Art-J]

Since you seem to be relatively new to DCS in general, first and foremost make sure you don't use game flight model (gameplay options) and you've got takeoff assist and auto rudder features turned off (special options). All these mess up warbirds handling to some extent and make their evaluation and learning more difficult in my opinion (by teaching bad habbits).

[gordonvembu]

yes, i have turned off takeoff assistance and not activated auto rudder as i feel likewise to your thoughts.

but still, as i gently apply throttle, this is what i experience with both the bf109k4 and fw190d9....

at first, the anticipated left torque pull, i use opposite rudder and dab right wheel brake,

then as throttle passes 60%, there comes a noticeable right pull eventhough rudder has been returned to neutral.

i definitely am a noob to this game, i have been playing a lot of il2 great battles for years,

and i've never experienced this behaviour nor struggled to get competent with takeoffs.

i'm sure i am doing something wrong but any sage will be welcome....

back to the grind.

[Art-J]

That doesn't sound quite right indeed. Maybe an issue of duplicated control assignment? Turn on the controls indicator window (Ctrl Enter) and see if something other than your pedals/twist stick affects your rudder as well. You can double check it in "axis assign" tab of control options too.

[grafspee]

During take off the plane inertia playas big role, if you develop right or left swing by using rudder, centering it wont stop this movement it will stop eventually but not instantly, so you have to apply opposite rudder to kill the swing. The biggest issue in DCS is over controling the plane.

But first check if you don't have any duplicated controls, DCS by default assign random thing to all your axis, you may end up with rudder axis assigned to throttle or roll or pitch axis, so before setting up clear them just to be sure

Oh and do not click Clear All button it will wipe all your bindings, i mean all, including ESC button assign

Instead select column and click clear category

Edited December 26, 2021 by grafspee

[Tuturuu]

Hey try to set curves to your stick and rudder axis

personally i use 30 curve for both axis and 35 for rudder

I think they had almost full cockpit with stick extension in mind when setting the default curve as it is far too sensitive for most users.

For the K4 i almost always keep the right rudder fully pressed and reduce it to return center when it start to go on the right with speed and rudder autority increasing

I also keep the stick aft and full right and center it progressively but keeping it right to counter left Roll 

I use break only for the first 2 seconds max then it is kinda pointless and worsten take off to try to recenter

The plane will remove again to the left when the back wheel is coming up so i just repress right brievely

I don't know if it's realistic but once you are used to it, it feels natural and translate very well between planes.

I think the main issue is that WE don't have a lot of good feedback about what is happening After it is already kinda late. I had a lot of trouble taking off in IL2 so i think it's just feedback récognition issues as we can't feel really what is Happening in videogame

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Tuturuu

[Mogster]

DCS is far more dynamic that earlier sims. It’s worth looking up take off advice for the specific aircraft you are trying to fly. One of the things about the DCS warbirds is how different they are. There’s no cookie cutter flight modems so no one procedure fits all takeoff technique. When you get it there is a feeling if accomplishment though.

[gordonvembu]

thnx all for the advice, i agree the curve numbers are critical to each plane.

also, i read on a previous post, that a fellow uses manual prop pitch at 12:00

for takeoff, then once airborne switches to auto. he says the coding for auto

is lagging behind and really causing an issue for takeoffs. i have double checked my

input controls, i do clear all, and start fresh including the UI layer for the end mission

ESC keystroke. watching some vids by requeim, i have noticed how more finutely

he controls the throttle by using the left hand throttle instrument.

i am just using the arrow keys and the rpm goes up quite fast from 0, seems to always keep 

going on up/down even after i let up on the key...seems to be choosing it's own number.

[gordonvembu]

once again, and this happens everytime, i'm doing Normandy takeoff instant action mission.

i'm on the runway, engine warm, idling, auto prop pitch, default stabilizer setting.

i tap my up arrow key, just tap it, the rpm info bar number goes superfast past 80 and fluctuates

between 92 and 85, everytime...on just a tap of the key.

do i really have to buy  the throttle piece to go along with my VKB gunfighter stick?

is anyone else using the k/b for their throttle input?

if so, and you are happy with it, pls help this Jerry's kid.

 

[grafspee]

6 minutes ago, gordonvembu said:

once again, and this happens everytime, i'm doing Normandy takeoff instant action mission.

i'm on the runway, engine warm, idling, auto prop pitch, default stabilizer setting.

i tap my up arrow key, just tap it, the rpm info bar number goes superfast past 80 and fluctuates

between 92 and 85, everytime...on just a tap of the key.

do i really have to buy  the throttle piece to go along with my VKB gunfighter stick?

is anyone else using the k/b for their throttle input?

if so, and you are happy with it, pls help this Jerry's kid.

 

Only advice i have for you is to hold brakes run up engine to 1.2 ata or 1.3 ata and when engine stabilize release brakes and don't touch throttle any more until airborne, elevator trim full nose down helps a lot, flaps 10-20 degrees down, just be ready to tap right brake to keep it straight.

You can do that, brakes will hold and plane will not tip over nose like spitfire or p-51

Edited December 26, 2021 by grafspee

[peachmonkey]

26 minutes ago, gordonvembu said:

once again, and this happens everytime, i'm doing Normandy takeoff instant action mission.

i'm on the runway, engine warm, idling, auto prop pitch, default stabilizer setting.

i tap my up arrow key, just tap it, the rpm info bar number goes superfast past 80 and fluctuates

between 92 and 85, everytime...on just a tap of the key.

do i really have to buy  the throttle piece to go along with my VKB gunfighter stick?

is anyone else using the k/b for their throttle input?

if so, and you are happy with it, pls help this Jerry's kid.

 

For a proper/smooth take off in A8 you definitely need a controller for the throttle so you can use it as 'axis', i.e. gradual and controlled increase. With A8 if you firewall the throttle (max) the plane becomes pretty unstable, twitchy, and once you raise the tail it starts violently swinging from left to right.

A8 throttle must be slowly and gradually increased to maintain the directional stability during the take offs. Using buttons for the throttle is a pretty serious limiting factor here.

Edited December 26, 2021 by peachmonkey

[grafspee]

@peachmonkey i disagree here for every axis plane you can hold brakes set power and take off, so no need to play with throttle during take off.

[razo+r]

You can also firewall the throttle in the A8 and I find it actually rather stable. And if you have some normal reaction speed and not just watch, any movement can be easily controlled and corrected. 

[gordonvembu]

thnx grafspee, i will try that out.

but even inflight when i tap my key for increase/decrease throttle,

it goes in the desired direction but chooses it's own end point, kinda fluctates.

i will have to look at the k/b input files to see what kind of sensitivity exists.

 

[No_Dice]

hold the stick slightly back while speeding up, using only the brakes lightly to keep it straight.

1-2 notches of flaps might help, thats personal preference imo.

once you hit +100kmh let the stick go to neutral position , the backwheel will lift and then apply right rudder. 

it does take a few times to master but once you got the hang of it , just try be gentle with the controls and throttle. 

[Bagpipe]

for 109 you will have a much easier time leaving the prop governor off for takeoff roll and as soon as you are wheels up you switch it back on.

 

full hotas is highly recommended, for added immersion if nothing else

[grafspee]

This is how i see it when no throttle available this is the easiest way.

 

[Sacarino111]

On 12/26/2021 at 10:53 PM, gordonvembu said:

do i really have to buy  the throttle piece to go along with my VKB gunfighter stick?

Hi

Definitively yes, you need a throttle! Any ! Even a second joystick ( of any brand, old one etc) could do, better if you remove the fwd/bkwd spring so it stays in place.

Saludos.

Saca111

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

By the way, after last month patch, i have noticed that Bf-109K4 only have enough controls authority over 250 kph, and it is easy to land without flaps at 300 kph than with full flaps at 180kph as actually must be done.
Due to the K4 take off like a kite, if you set NEUTRAL trim (zero position), and the reason is tabu in this forum. It is more easy to take off the K4 in this game, without flaps and with FULL nose-down trim. (Any resemblance with the behavior a real Bf-109 is pure coincidence).
For making the things worse, the tail-wheel have not enought grip, (even with tailwheel locked) and it have the same behavior in game, than a wood block dragging in the runway.
I think that we have same problem with tailwheel grip in all DCS tail dagger warbirds, even the Mosquito.  ..and please, correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited February 6, 2022 by IIIJG52_Otto_

[razo+r]

ED reduced tire friction some time ago because of the lack of "ass-G-meter/feeling" to make it easier to handle. So that, according to them, is not a bug but as designed. 

[Art-J]

@IIIJG52_Otto_Mossie doesn't have a tailwheel lock, so lateral grip of free-castering wheel is not a factor. Any directional issues people are having are more related to lack of prop slipstream around vertical tail and main brakes control (although that one became much more manageable after recent adopting of code from Spitfire at last).

The 2018 (I think?) friction change razo+r mentioned did affect 109 somewaht more than other warbirds (probably because of the least effective rudder) and I'm not sure the result is optimal, but in my opinion it surestill  is better than "old times" when any idiot could land 109 by slapping it on ground at any small yaw angle and the ultragrippy locked tailwheel would straighten the plane immediately without need of using rudder. Now at least you actually have to make an effort to touchdown straight and do some rudder dance before the tailwheel bites firmly. I'd hazard a guess it's more accurate like that.