Force Trim

[mbits]

51 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

As a result, if you are using spring-centered pedals with "Instant Trim" option selected for the pedals, it can be difficult to meet this criteria. I use "Instant Trim" on the cyclic but "Central Position" on the pedals, and it works better for me (I have Saitek Rudder Pedals, so take that for what it is worth).

Thanks for explaining. I'm now confused how this works if you have instant or central for cyclic but springless for pedals   

I take it the real thing has magnetic locking and force trim for pedals, not just cyclic?

Edited July 17, 2022 by mbits

[Raptor9]

58 minutes ago, mbits said:

I take it the real thing has magnetic locking and force trim for pedals, not just cyclic?

Yes. In the real aircraft the pedals will remain where they are when you let go of the force trim, just like the cyclic. If you are using pedals that are spring-loaded back to center, and using the "Pedals without springs/FFB" option, that means that the in-game pedals are going to follow your real pedals regardless of where the force trim reference is, thereby negating the criteria for Heading Hold to engage.

Likewise, if you use "Instant Trim" setting for the pedals, as soon as you let get of the force trim, your input is applied beyond the force trim reference position, which again negates the criteria for Heading Hold to engage. Depending on how quickly you let the pedals spring back to center and the magnitude of your initial input from the previous force trim reference, you may get the Heading Hold to engage, but it may require you to force trim twice. Big input to set the trim and get your physical pedals spring-loaded back to center, get the aircraft stable on heading close to your new force trim reference, and then make a smaller trim that doesnt violate the engagement criteria.

This is why "Central Position" works better for the purposes of engaging Heading Hold if you have spring-centered pedals.

As for the cyclic, I usually end up killing myself if I don't use Instant Trim.

[mbits]

I'm the same with instant trim cyclic. My pedals though are dampened and don't spring back so I have springless selected.  My stick is capable of doing that too but I soon realised leaving it sprung with instant trim worked best for me. Maybe I will find that eventually with the pedals too.

[TZeer]

10 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

The ATT hold being on or off has no effect on the Heading Hold below 40 knots ground speed. Heading Hold is always enabled in this speed region. Heading hold will disengage from the flight controls if you displace the pedals 3% in the yaw axis or if you press the force trim release, and it won't re-engage again until the the FTR is no longer pressed, the pedals are within 3% of the force trim location, and the yaw rates are less than 3 degrees per second. As a result, if you are using spring-centered pedals with "Instant Trim" option selected for the pedals, it can be difficult to meet this criteria. I use "Instant Trim" on the cyclic but "Central Position" on the pedals, and it works better for me (I have Saitek Rudder Pedals, so take that for what it is worth).

In the next manual update there will be an entire section dedicated to explaining the logic of the FMC, so hopefully that clears things up regarding the various hold modes and force trim interaction with them.

So just to build upon what you are saying here, with my setup ( no spring setup ). Regardless of my HOLD modes, I should see yaw movement while in hover ( manually or ATT Hold ) if I push my pedals more than 3% of the trimposition?

Now again, the yaw seems quite aggressive sometimes ( I don't have any curves ). Could this be the reason I feel it kinda "snaps" at me when getting over the 3%??
Seems that when you get past the 3% threshold, the simulator suddenly adds the 3% on the yaw input, instead of just taking the input from where the 3% get's crossed. 

Example:

Stable = 0% of trim position
0-3% = Nothing happens
Passing 3% = Suddenly adds 3% input to yaw (With the sensitivity of the yaw as it is now, this makes the Apache kick out it's tail more aggressively than you wanted)
6% = 6% yaw 

I'm at work right now, so have no chance of testing it now.


 

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

19 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

I was going to re-post my little tutorial video here, then I scrolled down and it looks like someone already did.

Since posting that vid I find myself more often disabling ATT Hold, making the heading adjustment, then re-enable ATT Hold for larger adjustments, and using the "re-trim" method for minor adjustments.  The "breaking out of SAS" method tends to result in hunting for the right pedal input for the new desired heading as by then the SAS is readjusting how much assistance it is providing anyway.

So I did some practice with OGE hover turns here. Your original tutorial method works for me. I just have to do it gently and watch the momentum at the end of the turn. If I overshoot the desired bearing, I apply pedals trim to adjust. Disabling ATT hold is an option too but I end up using cyclic control to stay in hover position. I use VKB T-pedals with instant trim as they have short pedal movements and that seems to work for me.   

[Scaley]

15 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

The ATT hold being on or off has no effect on the Heading Hold below 40 knots ground speed. Heading Hold is always enabled in this speed region. Heading hold will disengage from the flight controls if you displace the pedals 3% in the yaw axis or if you press the force trim release, and it won't re-engage again until the the FTR is no longer pressed, the pedals are within 3% of the force trim location, and the yaw rates are less than 3 degrees per second. As a result, if you are using spring-centered pedals with "Instant Trim" option selected for the pedals, it can be difficult to meet this criteria. I use "Instant Trim" on the cyclic but "Central Position" on the pedals, and it works better for me (I have Saitek Rudder Pedals, so take that for what it is worth).

In the next manual update there will be an entire section dedicated to explaining the logic of the FMC, so hopefully that clears things up regarding the various hold modes and force trim interaction with them.

However, in DCS there is definitely a difference in the behaviour of the yaw SAS channel (in the current build) between ATT Hold on and off, hence all the posts from people saying they disengage it to do pedal turns. I had assumed this was intentional due to the fact that holding down FTR currently changes the SCAS behaviour and as such you'd struggle to make small yaw corrections while in a stable hover.

[Raptor9]

5 hours ago, TZeer said:

Seems that when you get past the 3% threshold, the simulator suddenly adds the 3% on the yaw input, instead of just taking the input from where the 3% get's crossed. 

There could be one or two things at play here, depending on where the WIP state of the SCAS is.

When you move the pedals but don't exceed the "breakout" value of 3%, the Yaw channel attempts to counter the input because it is recognized as a non-deliberate input. When you violate the breakout value this countering input is removed.

There is also a command augmentation input made to the controls at various airspeeds to create uniform control response, so you might be seeing this, possibly in addition to the effect described above.

The biggest takeaway is that when the aircraft "let's go" and lets the aircraft yaw instead of holding the heading, it is because it's recognizing the input as deliberate and stops fighting the pilot input when the 3% breakout value is exceeded.

[dburne]

Well I gotta say I think I am about done with the Apache now. And it tears me up to think I even invested in a Virpil Collective just for this thing. Over 100 hours invested in trying to learn the Apache and I still can not transition from forward flight to a hover cleanly at least half the time.  Typically ends up with the chopper spinning wildly and out of control. Forget trying to transition to a hover over a landing pad and being able to actually land this thing. It is absolutely nuts that I can do it sometimes but just can not be consistent with it at all.

Think I will go back to my Hornet flying for a while. At least the time I put into it has paid off for me, unlike the Apache. Yeah I am pretty disgusted with the Apache at this point.

[mbits]

I completely understand where you're coming from based on my own experience. Im just having a break and seeing where it is after a bit more development.

[dburne]

Well I just did two more sessions and did ok, both landings were pretty good. Second landing I actually put it down on the helipad I was shooting for - so that is big for me. Now if I can just remember how exactly I did it so I can be more consistent with it.

[Dallas88B]

9 hours ago, dburne said:

Over 100 hours invested in trying to learn the Apache and I still can not transition from forward flight to a hover cleanly at least half the time.  Typically ends up with the chopper spinning wildly and out of control. Forget trying to transition to a hover over a landing pad and being able to actually land this thing.

When I see skilled YT and twitch streamers having the same sort of experience I know its not just me.
Moreover nobody seems interested in producing proper up to date videos showing how its meant to to flown with trim, AT and AL Hold using todays software. Vids are all 3 months old stuff. I have to wonder why. 
30 seconds of "how to, look here, I did it once", videos don't count.
Like you I really hope it gets better in  future updates. I really, really, hope that ED doesn't just move onto whatever is the next module (as has been suggested)

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

YouTube hover tutorials are mostly sanitised IGE hovers. What I suggest for now is set your missions to have little to no wind if possible to help with transition to OGE hover to face target location.

[Floyd1212]

Honestly, I don’t pay much attention to wind direction. Maybe that explains why sometimes things cooperate, and other times they get a little hairy when I’m settling in to the hover.

I agree. Videos from the pros of a short 15 minute mission to fly to a nearby group of enemies, take them out from a couple positions using George, then RTB and land.

If it looks like a struggle, then we know we are all in the same boat. And if it seems to be executed flawlessly, then maybe we will all learn something.

Maybe I will endeavor to produce one myself, though I would not consider myself a “pro”. 

[deloy]

Guys who are spinning while specially when trying to transition to low speed and hover (specially OGE) need to be careful with pedals and anticipate movement, not applying tooo much of correction, as it becomes a see saw, partly due current SCAS behavior .  It maybe an issue related to particular control setup and central trimmer mode, and remember there is a learning curve when trying to learn conventional tail rotor helicopters (I know, many were spoiled by flying Blackshark!).  There are some issue with SCAS tuning when trying to move pedals but it is manageable, or maybe there can an aspect of LTE modeled, (which I an not sure) when in "Hot" and "high" conditions.  

I fly using real world techniques using FTR hold and using attitude hold and it generally works, while using Raptor9's trim setting using instant for cyclic and center position mode for pedals.  I am sure it will get better with more fine tuning of the SCAS.

[dburne]

Well three subsequent attempts yesterday  I handled the transition from forward flight to hover ok. Reckon there may be hope yet, will persevere.

Thanks for all the input,

[Floyd1212]

I went ahead and made a video talking through some of the techniques I use for attacking a zone of enemy units.

 

 

Apologies for the quality.  I didn't realize that the videos I have produced aren't at the full resolution that my monitor is running.    I will have to look at my capture software and come up with another solution.  Also, apologies for my mumbling.

I forgot to mention at the beginning of the video that my pedals are MFG Crosswinds, with the spring removed and damper mod installed.  I am using light springs in my cyclic so my stick is super loose with very little resistance.  And finally, I am using "Central Position Trimmer Mode" for the Cyclic, and "Pedals without Springs and FFB" for the pedals.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

6 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

I went ahead and made a video talking through some of the techniques I use for attacking a zone of enemy units.

 

 

Apologies for the quality.  I didn't realize that the videos I have produced aren't at the full resolution that my monitor is running.    I will have to look at my capture software and come up with another solution.  Also, apologies for my mumbling.

I forgot to mention at the beginning of the video that my pedals are MFG Crosswinds, with the spring removed and damper mod installed.  I am using light springs in my cyclic so my stick is super loose with very little resistance.  And finally, I am using "Central Position Trimmer Mode" for the Cyclic, and "Pedals without Springs and FFB" for the pedals.

Thanks for the vid. Nice hovering there. I noticed the SCAS coincides with your inputs quite well. You did not mention holding down FTR so I presume it's your smooth inputs keeping SCAS in agreement with you? I find mine fighting often but then I have a warthog stick (default stiffness) and VKB T rudders (small displacements). I can see how those springless damped pedals are a good choice. Is your stick on extension as well? I'm thinking a loose stick makes inputs effortless but could also create more SCAS activity if movements are too fast unless mounted with an extension.

Your workaround on the FTReset is interesting. So when the axes inputs are disabled and you reposition the stick, you estimate where the stick should be based on the controls indicator? I hope ED can add in such a workaround in the special options or at least the option of having a slower/smoother trim reset instead of the jump. Thanks again.    

[Dallas88B]

9 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

I went ahead and made a video talking through some of the techniques I use for attacking a zone of enemy units.

Really excellent video. Very nice hovering and movement. Thank you for posting it.

The work around for Force Trim Reset clearly works well for you. Your use of snap views it neat too - I must try that.

Finally, thank you for the heads up about the RotorOps missions - I have downloaded the two demo's from the DCS user files and started looking at the RotorOps Mission Generator website - I was totally unaware of RotorOps  - its quite a find for me - thank you.

[Floyd1212]

2 hours ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

You did not mention holding down FTR

I use the tap method for trim, but really only use it when cruising and when trimming for a hover before applying ATT and ALT hold modes.  For example, when releasing out of the hover to reposition to a new area, I have reset trim back to center and just flew without it.

The SCAS didn't give me much grief in that video, but it certainly does other times.

2 hours ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Is your stick on extension as well?

Yes, I use a center-mount stick with a 20cm extension.  I think that coupled with the light springs and the curve of 15 really helps me make small adjustments when hovering.

 

2 hours ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Your workaround on the FTReset is interesting. So when the axes inputs are disabled and you reposition the stick, you estimate where the stick should be based on the controls indicator?

Exactly.  I have another video on my channel which describes how I set that up.

[Floyd1212]

37 minutes ago, Dallas88B said:

Finally, thank you for the heads up about the RotorOps missions

I think you will find endless hours of entertainment with those. 

You can make your own custom scenario templates (and unit groups) where you determine where the zones are located, then you use them in the generator to place the units in the zone.  I then go back in and tweak their placement a bit to make sure they aren't inside buildings, etc.  I have been working on adding side missions to do between the zones, like destroying a convoy, and adding SAM threats, etc. 

[Dallas88B]

On 7/25/2022 at 1:33 PM, Floyd1212 said:

You can make your own custom scenario templates (and unit groups) where you determine where the zones are located, then you use them in the generator to place the units in the zone.  I then go back in and tweak their placement a bit to make sure they aren't inside buildings, etc

I take it that the mission in your video is one you created yourself ?

[Floyd1212]

39 minutes ago, Dallas88B said:

I take it that the mission in your video is one you created yourself ?

Yes. I was thinking about going through some of my scenario templates and posting them, but making them yourself is very easy.  Maybe I will make a post over in the Missions sub-forum with some links and suggestions.

[Dallas88B]

8 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

Maybe I will make a post over in the Missions sub-forum with some links and suggestions

That would be great if your so inclined and have the time. 

[Dallas88B]

On 7/18/2022 at 6:10 AM, Raptor9 said:

In the next manual update there will be an entire section dedicated to explaining the logic of the FMC, so hopefully that clears things up regarding the various hold modes and force trim interaction with them.

The latest manual update seems to be 3rd of March 2022 (unless I am looking in the wrong place) Are you allowed to say when the next manual update will be available?

 

[Raptor9]

2 hours ago, Dallas88B said:

The latest manual update seems to be 3rd of March 2022 (unless I am looking in the wrong place) Are you allowed to say when the next manual update will be available?

The manual was updated on the 20th of July with last weeks Openbeta. Check in your DCS install in the Mods/aircraft/AH-64D/Doc location.