Switching between pilot and CP/G

[Baldrick33]

3 minutes ago, imacken said:

I agree with what you say, but the rudder/cyclic transfer can easily be handled in the same way that trim is. i.e. the stick/rudder are centred after trimming, so the same could (should?) happen with transferring from George.  Having the ctrl-enter control panel showing demonstrates all this perfectly.

Rightly or wrongly I fly untrimmed almost all of the time, I have a light spring and extension so I just hold the stick in position where a real helicopter cyclic would hold it with the trim set. I fly for thrills rather than trying to reduce fatigue that a real world pilot would face on long flights. My background is sim racing where I am constantly correcting steering so I apply the same approach to combat sim flying. I accept this isn't by the book! So I don't really want any trimming forced upon me if I switch seats.

3 minutes ago, imacken said:

I also agree that the collective is more difficult to find a solution to, for the reasons you said.  Maybe the collective input from George could remain the same until your physical stick reaches that point, and then it takes control?

That sounds a great idea!

[imacken]

OK, I think we're going to get confused with 2 threads going on this. Maybe @BIGNEWYcould merge them, but I'll link to this in your bug thread.  I'm not sure why BN keeps talking about the transfer TO George when it's the transfer FROM that is the issue.

However, with regard to trim, then that can be transferred, I've just noticed.  If you keep the Control Display panel open you can see what happens.  When control is taken back from George, you can see where the cyclic/rudder inputs are and also your centred ones marked with the red crosses.  Now, just like normal trim, if you DON'T move your control from centre and press the trim button, your controls then take on what George was set to. So, I feel that is a non issue.

However, it's the collective that is the issue.  Maybe, as I said above, the collective input could be held until your physical collective reaches the same point, similar to trim.  Now, that could be shown as a 'ghost' level on the Controls Panel until the correct position is reached.

 

[hotrod525]

Is George fonctionnal online ? We have issue on our side setting it up properly...

[shagrat]

Am 23.3.2022 um 10:23 schrieb Baldrick33:

I have a light spring and extension so I just hold the stick in position where a real helicopter cyclic would hold it with the trim set.

That's fine, until you are in the front seat and grab the TEDAC controls, instead of flying the helicopter. You either let go of your stick to grab the controller/or other controls assigned to the TEDAC grips, or you use the stick as part of the TEDAC grips/controls. Either way you are likely not able to keep the physical stick in the position that George will put it in, when he hovers/flys the aircraft.

As soon as you request the controls again, your physical inputs do no longer match the input George used to control the aircraft.

If the controls position George put in would be either trimmed (so you could simply trim reset to go back to untrimmed) or gradually move to your physical stick position like if you hold the force trim release, this would at least smooth the violent jerking of the controls.

As always a way to make this an option to choose as personal preference may differ would be the perfect solution.

[Silvester.E]

Hi,

Too bad some have problems and i don’t have the solution but just wanted to say that I don’t have any problems transitioning from cpg to pilot and take controls back. I am not doing anything special but don’t encounter this issue. 
 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Silvester.E

[aaronwhite]

On 5/4/2023 at 11:11 AM, Silvester.E said:

Hi,

Too bad some have problems and i don’t have the solution but just wanted to say that I don’t have any problems transitioning from cpg to pilot and take controls back. I am not doing anything special but don’t encounter this issue. 
 

 

 

I believe it's been significantly improved in the handoff phase in recent patches. I know initially, I struggled to switch back to the pilot's seat, but George definitely does better at holding it steady, and I haven't really had any trouble at all recently switching, as long as I'm not hovering in a tiny box with no space. But I'm generally hovering around tree-top height when I switch from the front to the back seat, and I've never really had trouble getting on the controls and flying off somewhere else. 

[perri81]

In May/2024 this issue still happens. What I do is pressing TRIM HOLD immediately when switch from CPG/Gunner seat to Pilot seat. It’s tricky but works fine.

[JetCat]

Sometimes when things get completely out of control and the helicopters begins to spin and tilt with me not seeing where I am anymore and what flight attitude the heli has in thick fog and rain, switching to the front seat is the only option to get things under control again

Yes switching to the back seat and that auto-hoover button after things are stable again is a great solution. This heli is a bit difficult to fly in IFR conditions like cloud rain fog and other difficult flying situations because it has no artificial horizon or other navigation aids in the IHADSS.

[Floyd1212]

3 hours ago, JetCat said:

because it has no artificial horizon or other navigation aids in the IHADSS

Page 99 of the User Guide has some info on the different IHADSS Symbology Modes you might find useful.  Try Cruise or Transition modes for flying in low visibility situations.  Transition mode has an artificial horizon, and Cruise mode even has a pitch ladder.

null

null

[OrangePaw]

I still have issues with this transition from George piloting to me piloting.

I transition from George flying to me flying and the controllers are all out of wack with what George was flying. Now I spin out of control and collective doesn't help. Need marks on the controller display that shows where George has his collective and stick inputs and I'm able to replicate those before taking over control.

I have seen this with the new Kiowa warrior Helicopter used to help transition from AI to pilot. Am I missing something that helps others with this transition from George to me as pilot?

[Floyd1212]

Maybe while you are pressing Request Control from George, a ghost image of the cyclic/collective/pedals appears where George currently has them so you can look down in the cockpit and alight your controls in game, then when you release the button you resume control. 

[Mekako]

What I do to alleviate this behaviour is trim the aircraft as well as I’m able, select attitude hold, fine adjust the flight path and then swap position. The same in hover.

I can swap between positions almost without any issues.

Edited October 15, 2024 by Mekako

[Greyman]

I've just started flying the Apache again, fairly recently, and although my relative inexperience may be causing some of the problem, the transition from the CPG to Pilot seat is definitely not as seamless as the other way round.  I even got George to land and when I got into the pilot seat and reset the trims, the helicopter still span out of control when I took off again.  I can take off perfectly, normally by the way, so there must be some carry-over from George's time in the pilot's seat that shouldn't be there.

As the CPG would never be able to move to the pilot seat IRL, there is absolutely no reason for the simulation to be way harder than it needs to be, in order to maintain realism.  For me,  this either needs to be corrected in the code or clear instructions provided as to how users are supposed to move to the pilot seat without the helicopter spinning out of control.

I'm guessing that as this appears to have been an issue from the start and it still exists, I might need to wait a fair while or just find some way of working around, for me, what is an obvious flaw in the code?

After a little more testing, there would appear to be something odd going on with the collective, as I'll describe below:-

Using the instant mission, starting on the runway at Kutaisi, I switch to the CPG seat, before taking off.  I then instruct George to climb to 50ft, in the hover, and then descend back to the ground. When he's landed and is "safe and sound" on the deck, I switch to the pilot seat.  I then reset all trims, before trying to take off again.  As soon as I move the collective away from the minimum position, even slightly, it jumps wildly upwards, apparently possessed, causing the aircraft to climb rapidly and spin out of control.   

By the way, I always fly in VR and have a TM Warthog HOTAS, with the Collective axis mapped to one of my throttle levers, inverted.

Edited January 22 by Greyman

[Greyman]

Well, it would appear that the final word of my previous post was more important than I'd thought when typing it.

Looking at the collective, it would appear that for some reason, the virtual collective can't make its mind up whether to treat the axis as inverted or not, with it switching between the two, apparently at random.

The problem goes away when I remove the inversion from the mapping, so it looks like part of the code at least, is looking at both the raw position of the physical lever and part is using the inverted value.  Very odd, especially as this issue only appears after switching from the CPG seat.

Edited January 22 by Greyman

[Greyman]

So, and sorry for the repeated posts, but it looks like this odd behaviour is happening because I'd never inverted my CPG collective mapping, as I'd never planned on flying the helicopter from the front seat.  

However, there is still something odd going on, as for the pilot seat, for some reason, the helicopter is using the mapping for the CPG as well as that of the Pilot.

Am I missing something somewhere?

On the bright side, I've now inverted both collective mappings, so it won't really matter.

The asymmetric bindings was perhaps a bit of an edge case that was never tested for?  Trust me.   

[MAXsenna]

6 hours ago, Greyman said:

On the bright side, I've now inverted both collective mappings, so it won't really matter.

Have you set them as sliders as well. If you haven't it wouldn't surprise me to see this behaviour when one is inverted and the other isn't. 

Cheers! 

[Greyman]

6 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Have you set them as sliders as well. If you haven't it wouldn't surprise me to see this behaviour when one is inverted and the other isn't. 

Cheers! 

As I hadn't originally adjusted the CPG collective mapping from when I'd imported a user mapping file from downloads\users, that might have been mapped as a slider, I'd have to check, but at least at one point, I'd had my Pilot's collective mapped as a slider.  Either way, I'll switch them both to sliders, although they're both not sliders at the moment and that still seems to work as it should.  I guess it must be something to do with non-slider axes having  a white line that moves from the centre, rather than from one end of the indicator, when moving the control in the binding screen?  I guess that DCS is normally able to make sense of the readings from a non-slider throttle/collective binding, but this seat switching is throwing it a bit of a curve ball?

It's as though the code is somehow "remembering" the axis mapping from when I am in the CPG seat and still using it for the pilot's seat.   

Thanks.

Edited January 23 by Greyman