▓▒░ Open source Flamming Cliffs 3 ░▒▓

[Callsign112]

On 3/26/2022 at 7:03 PM, Beirut said:

 

You don't have any FC3 planes yet? I'm surprised.

 

I think the A-10a was my first DCS payware plane. Had to have the BRRRRRTTTT! I think the FC3 planes are great. They're a lot of fun and do a lot of things and I think you can get them on sale for less than $10. It's a super sweet deal.

 

It's hard to beat the SU-25A in the FC3 planes. I call it the Pickup Truck of Death. Easy to operate, fast, and carries a huge amount of repressed anger. Some of it laser guided.

Gonna fix that problem today

I was planning on starting with the cold war stuff first, but the A10A is a must have for me even if it didn't get the full ED treatment. So I decided to start with FC3 and check that BRRRRRRTTT out first. The bigger issue for me though is I still don't have a HOTAS/Pedals setup yet, so there is no big rush.

To the OP's request though, I doubt we will ever see the FC3 planes updated to full fidelity, and if we do, it wont be called FC3 anymore. But like the OP, I think the FC3 plane set is still an important and worthwhile product line for ED, and it still deserves attention.

I would certainly argue with the OP that as DCS World continues to grow and expand on its many boundaries, it would make sense that the FC3 product line also see improvements that go beyond just technical support/bug fixes.

Not sure what those improvements should be, because there will always have to be a differentiation between FF models and low fidelity models, but I am sure there are ways the DEV's could consider to make it interesting.

[Beirut]

25 minutes ago, Callsign112 said:

Gonna fix that problem today

I was planning on starting with the cold war stuff first, but the A10A is a must have for me even if it didn't get the full ED treatment. So I decided to start with FC3 and check that BRRRRRRTTT out first. The bigger issue for me though is I still don't have a HOTAS/Pedals setup yet, so there is no big rush.

To the OP's request though, I doubt we will ever see the FC3 planes updated to full fidelity, and if we do, it wont be called FC3 anymore. But like the OP, I think the FC3 plane set is still an important and worthwhile product line for ED, and it still deserves attention.

I would certainly argue with the OP that as DCS World continues to grow and expand on its many boundaries, it would make sense that the FC3 product line also see improvements that go beyond just technical support/bug fixes.

Not sure what those improvements should be, because there will always have to be a differentiation between FF models and low fidelity models, but I am sure there are ways the DEV's could consider to make it interesting.

 

Apparently the A-10A got the FM improvements and the better BRRRRTTTT! sound of the A-10C, so it's a killer deal.

 

I think I'd like to see the SU-25T go full fidelity. It's such a versatile and fun plane. And free no less. 

[Callsign112]

14 hours ago, FlankerKiller said:

The Clickable cockpit for the included systems alone would be a huge improvement. Further development of systems for more realism within the confines of Russian law would be another. For the life of me I don't understand why the A-10A and F-15C don't get the Full fidelity treatment. You could sell the A-10 as a mega pack covering almost the whole life of the airframe. And even if they just completed the Mid 90's F-15C in game it would sell like hotcakes. 

 

I couldn't agree more, the A10A should have been a FF model in DCS.

But there is a context behind the reason the FC3 plane set is what it is, and I doubt it has anything to do with a "this plane would sell more than that plane" type argument.

If FC3 didn't exist as a product, and FF models of the F-86F and F-15C were released at the same time, could you guess which one would sell more? Probably not, and I think its likely that both would fair well.

I think the answer to your question why the FC3 plane set doesn't get the FF treatment is because it would create competing products which is bad business. ED could have made any one of the FC3 planes a FF model and it probably would have done just as well as all the other FF models, but it created FC3 to target a specific need and the simplified planes from the Lock On series seem to fit the purpose.

But I agree completely, as a digital combat simulator it makes sense that the FC3 planes would at least have animated switches for the systems that are included just for the immersion element alone.

[Callsign112]

24 minutes ago, Beirut said:

 

Apparently the A-10A got the FM improvements and the better BRRRRTTTT! sound of the A-10C, so it's a killer deal.

 

I think I'd like to see the SU-25T go full fidelity. It's such a versatile and fun plane. And free no less. 

All of the FC3 planes have a PFM except for the Su-25. In case you haven't seen it, go to their web page and search DCS product terms to see a list of the planes and the FM each has. But yeah, looking forward to trying out the BRRRRRRTT on some Russian steel later tonight

[Beirut]

22 minutes ago, Callsign112 said:

All of the FC3 planes have a PFM except for the Su-25. In case you haven't seen it, go to their web page and search DCS product terms to see a list of the planes and the FM each has. But yeah, looking forward to trying out the BRRRRRRTT on some Russian steel later tonight

 

Sweet! Are you getting the whole package or just the A-10A?

[FlankerKiller]

37 minutes ago, Callsign112 said:

I couldn't agree more, the A10A should have been a FF model in DCS.

But there is a context behind the reason the FC3 plane set is what it is, and I doubt it has anything to do with a "this plane would sell more than that plane" type argument.

If FC3 didn't exist as a product, and FF models of the F-86F and F-15C were released at the same time, could you guess which one would sell more? Probably not, and I think its likely that both would fair well.

I think the answer to your question why the FC3 plane set doesn't get the FF treatment is because it would create competing products which is bad business. ED could have made any one of the FC3 planes a FF model and it probably would have done just as well as all the other FF models, but it created FC3 to target a specific need and the simplified planes from the Lock On series seem to fit the purpose.

But I agree completely, as a digital combat simulator it makes sense that the FC3 planes would at least have animated switches for the systems that are included just for the immersion element alone.

I'm sorry but no. None of that is correct. LOMAC hit the shelves at least as early as 2004, Flaming cliffs in like 2006. I definitely remember the first time a saw the AFM in action. And LOMAC was an evolution of the Flanker series. The FC3 birds are the way they are because they are an old product, and they were the standard at the time. When the F-15 and then Su-27 got the PFM there were no air to air options in DCS. The M2000 came out sometime in early 2016, and thet was the first modual really capable of air to air. Well the Mig-21. You are correct that an FF Su-27 would create a compating product with the modern blue 4th gens. They would compete in many many online servers across the internet. By your logic the Hind hurt Apache sales, and the Apache hurt Hind sales. But I bet that isn't the case. There is a reason the F-5 was made. There's a reason there is a Huey and a Hip. And since ED got there whole start doing the Flanker family there would be a reason there was a Flanker and a Viper. But they cannot do it. Russian law prohibits it. FC3 is littaraly the dest they are allowed to do. It's an old product that they still kinda support, and it gives to blue side something to go against. But if those Flankers could be FF modules they already would be. 

[Callsign112]

21 minutes ago, Beirut said:

 

Sweet! Are you getting the whole package or just the A-10A?

No I think I am going to go with just the A10 and F15 to start. I already have the Su-33 when I bought the SC, so I will be halfway there after adding the two American jets. But yeah for me even without having a proper setup to fly, I will still get a lot of enjoyment out of the A10. Its that ground war thing if ya know what I mean

[Callsign112]

15 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

I'm sorry but no. None of that is correct. LOMAC hit the shelves at least as early as 2004, Flaming cliffs in like 2006. I definitely remember the first time a saw the AFM in action. And LOMAC was an evolution of the Flanker series. The FC3 birds are the way they are because they are an old product, and they were the standard at the time. When the F-15 and then Su-27 got the PFM there were no air to air options in DCS. The M2000 came out sometime in early 2016, and thet was the first modual really capable of air to air. Well the Mig-21. You are correct that an FF Su-27 would create a compating product with the modern blue 4th gens. They would compete in many many online servers across the internet. By your logic the Hind hurt Apache sales, and the Apache hurt Hind sales. But I bet that isn't the case. There is a reason the F-5 was made. There's a reason there is a Huey and a Hip. And since ED got there whole start doing the Flanker family there would be a reason there was a Flanker and a Viper. But they cannot do it. Russian law prohibits it. FC3 is littaraly the dest they are allowed to do. It's an old product that they still kinda support, and it gives to blue side something to go against. But if those Flankers could be FF modules they already would be. 

I'm not disagreeing with you. I think you are probably providing some of the historical context to how FC3 came about. The fact that ED made the FC3 series part of DCS World implies to me at least that as a product, it serves a purpose. We would have to hear from ED itself to better understand exactly what the purpose is, but I think it would be a fair guess to say a revenue stream is likely one of them.

But it seems you might have misunderstood my main point. The FC3 A10 and F-15 have nothing to do with what Russian law allows. My point was simply that we aren't likely going to see FF FC3 planes because it would create competition within ED's own product line.

In other words, what ever ED's reasons were for making the FC3 series part of DCS are history now. But its not likely that ED is going to provide the current A10A owners with the same level of model you get if you purchase the A10CII. My guess is that we got the A10CII and will eventually see an F-15E because the A10A and F-15C already exist as FC3 planes.

But I completely agree with you. Its too bad the A10A wasn't a FF model in DCS. But like the OP, I hope that ED continues to find ways to inject new life into the FC3 product line. The biggest reason to me is the plane set appears to still hold a lot of interest for a lot of people. And as we can all see, DCS is continually being upgraded. I think its only fair that the FC3 product line be included in that.   

[MAXsenna]

46 minutes ago, Callsign112 said:

No I think I am going to go with just the A10 and F15 to start. I already have the Su-33 when I bought the SC, so I will be halfway there after adding the two American jets. But yeah for me even without having a proper setup to fly, I will still get a lot of enjoyment out of the A10. Its that ground war thing if ya know what I mean

LOL! Yeah, I got the Su-33 with SC as well, then I got FC3, and I didn't like the way they were "presented" in the GUI, so I got the individual ones as well. So, that means I have 3 Su-33s!

Anyway! I think you have forgotten about one plane. I have disabled FC3, but I still have the J-11. Do you?

[Beirut]

58 minutes ago, Callsign112 said:

No I think I am going to go with just the A10 and F15 to start. I already have the Su-33 when I bought the SC, so I will be halfway there after adding the two American jets. But yeah for me even without having a proper setup to fly, I will still get a lot of enjoyment out of the A10. Its that ground war thing if ya know what I mean

 

Yeah, I got the SU-33 with the carrier as well. I don't fly it very much but it does look very cool with an RCAF skin.  The F-15 is cool because it's an F-15.  I don't fly the Mig-29 or Su-27 often at all. But for about $7 each on sale I have no regrets.

[Callsign112]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

LOL! Yeah, I got the Su-33 with SC as well, then I got FC3, and I didn't like the way they were "presented" in the GUI, so I got the individual ones as well. So, that means I have 3 Su-33s!

Anyway! I think you have forgotten about one plane. I have disabled FC3, but I still have the J-11. Do you?

No I don't have FC3, and haven't bought the Su-27 yet. Is it just a FC3 thing, or is it also included when you buy the Su-27 standalone?

[Callsign112]

1 hour ago, Beirut said:

 

Yeah, I got the SU-33 with the carrier as well. I don't fly it very much but it does look very cool with an RCAF skin.  The F-15 is cool because it's an F-15.  I don't fly the Mig-29 or Su-27 often at all. But for about $7 each on sale I have no regrets.

Yeah I just took the A10 for a quick free flight. Like I said, I'm already enjoying it. Absolutely love the look and feel of it so far. Tanks ED!

The F-15, well lets just say I'll get back to you if I ever get a proper set up. But yeah I agree, its cool just because its an F-15.

And yup I did it! The MiG-21 is my first FF jet module, and OMG she's a real beaut. I love the lived-in look and feel of the cockpit. The one thing DCS has really opened my eyes to is how intricately the people in this field simulate mechanical systems. If I take any of the FF models I have (WWII/modern) I can just tell its got to be a labor of love. So now I downloaded Chuck's guide and... yeah its going to take awhile ... 

But ditto on what you said. For $7, they are almost giving it away. I mean if you like computer games with a military theme, and you enjoy watching it from the cockpit of a plane, can you suggest a better way to spend $7? Because Starbucks ain't it!

But a question I have in support of the OP's request is how do FC3 planes fit in the MP world? I mean I've never been on a DCS MP server, but my understanding is that you can hop in an F-15 and duke it out with whoever else is on the server. But if some of the systems are simplified, don't work, or have limited performance, how does that support MP game play?

Again, I have never done MP so just typing thoughts, but seems to me that there could be an inclusion issue here. Couldn't there? If the FC3 F-15C meets a Heatblur F-14, all things being equal between the two Vpilots, is the F-15 at any disadvantage because it is a FC3 plane?

I guess I was just assuming that anyone using the FC3 planes to get into the DCS MP world are able to use their radar/weapons in a competitive way against what ever else is on the server, but I just read someones comments in another thread where the OP is suggesting that the F-15C has trouble identifying certain targets at distances where it should be able to. 

 

[Beirut]

45 minutes ago, Callsign112 said:

Yeah I just took the A10 for a quick free flight. Like I said, I'm already enjoying it. Absolutely love the look and feel of it so far. Tanks ED!

The F-15, well lets just say I'll get back to you if I ever get a proper set up. But yeah I agree, its cool just because its an F-15.

And yup I did it! The MiG-21 is my first FF jet module, and OMG she's a real beaut. I love the lived-in look and feel of the cockpit. The one thing DCS has really opened my eyes to is how intricately the people in this field simulate mechanical systems. If I take any of the FF models I have (WWII/modern) I can just tell its got to be a labor of love. So now I downloaded Chuck's guide and... yeah its going to take awhile ... 

But ditto on what you said. For $7, they are almost giving it away. I mean if you like computer games with a military theme, and you enjoy watching it from the cockpit of a plane, can you suggest a better way to spend $7? Because Starbucks ain't it!

But a question I have in support of the OP's request is how do FC3 planes fit in the MP world? I mean I've never been on a DCS MP server, but my understanding is that you can hop in an F-15 and duke it out with whoever else is on the server. But if some of the systems are simplified, don't work, or have limited performance, how does that support MP game play?

Again, I have never done MP so just typing thoughts, but seems to me that there could be an inclusion issue here. Couldn't there? If the FC3 F-15C meets a Heatblur F-14, all things being equal between the two Vpilots, is the F-15 at any disadvantage because it is a FC3 plane?

I guess I was just assuming that anyone using the FC3 planes to get into the DCS MP world are able to use their radar/weapons in a competitive way against what ever else is on the server, but I just read someones comments in another thread where the OP is suggesting that the F-15C has trouble identifying certain targets at distances where it should be able to. 

 

 

Actually, I'd just about pay $7 for some Starbucks right now.  

 

Apparently the F-15 is, or at least was, a big player in MP action. I've never flown it MP but it seems some others do.

[Callsign112]

Actually I pretty much quit all together and bought a Nespresso machine. It lives sooo much closer to the computer where I keep Chuck's guides!   ...

Yeah its hard to imagine it would work any other way. My understanding was that the FC3 product offered an easier gateway to learning DCS. There is an awful lot of enjoyment to be taken from something like DCS for sure if your into this type of game, but it does take a certain level of commitment IMO. 

Even as simplified modules, the FC3 planes are going to take more than a passing interest and some light reading to become proficient even in SP from what I can see. There is nearly 600 pages of documentation between the FC3, F-15C, and A10A ED supplied flight manuals. While there is bound to be some duplication of information, there is still a lot there so its good to know that its all worthwhile for anyone interested in the MP scene. 

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Callsign112

[Cmptohocah]

There seems to be some confusion happening here

Flamming Cliffs was not included in DCS, but rather DCS came to be from the former. It's just when they technically created DCS as a stand-alone sim, the Flamming Cliffs series became a module - hence why it incorporates a bunch of planes.

Regarding the open-source development of FC3 that is mentioned, this is what I meant in more simple terms:

- ED does not want to add/remove any features -- make it open source and let "us" do the work, and then ED can just approve/reject these features as they seem fit

- I am not talking about unrealistic wish-type stuff, but manual proven features that exist in RL

- I never aluded to make FC3 planes full fidelity, but rather improve them a bit and add many missing features so they get the attention they deserve

Edited March 28, 2022 by Cmptohocah

[Callsign112]

I like your suggestion and don't think anyone would oppose improvements, but I am just trying to imagine how it could work from a business point of view. But this is exactly what wish lists are for.

Speaking purely from the standpoint of a DCS product and having just gotten the A10, I am quite literally asking myself what took so long. Unless you have a very strong interest in WWII like I do, the FC3 package is a no brain-er IMO especially for anyone just starting out. I mean for $25 you get no less than 6 planes including the ability to do carrier ops, or any single plane of your choice for $7. My only regret is that I didn't pick the A10 up back when I first started with CA.

But even though the module has been declared feature complete, there is always the possibility that FC3 planes could see further improvements as DCS World itself continues to develop. I think the plane set in the FC3 module is interesting enough to enough people that there will always be a possibility we see future improvements. 

[SkateZilla]

Any new developments or evolutions of FC3 Aircraft will likely be in MAC.

[EagleEye.DCS]

35 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

Any new developments or evolutions of FC3 Aircraft will likely be in MAC.

Is the MAC project still alive? Sounds good then 

[MAXsenna]

No I don't have FC3, and haven't bought the Su-27 yet. Is it just a FC3 thing, or is it also included when you buy the Su-27 standalone?

I don't know. I have them all, (don't rule'em though ), so you can check with the quick mission rendering and see if you can choose the J-11.
Make sure to check out Cfrags A-10A training missions and YF22 something F-15C training missions.

Hmmm, I have a strong feeling we're gonna make a whirly head out of you some day. When in doubt, get the Hip. You'll hate it at first, but you'll get there, and it'll be the love of your life!


Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Ashayar]

16 hours ago, Callsign112 said:

But I agree completely, as a digital combat simulator it makes sense that the FC3 planes would at least have animated switches for the systems that are included just for the immersion element alone.

Hello there!

 

A little mistake: Some switches are animated (I think about every bind is) in FC3 planes. Even in the SU-25T, that's the case.

 

Just my two cents

 

Have a nice day!

[draconus]

3 hours ago, Ashayar said:

Some switches are animated (I think about every bind is) in FC3 planes.

Yes but only small part of switches are animated in game and not even all that are used as binds. Otoh some aircraft from the pack have almost all switches animated (F-15C) in model viewer but not programmed into the game.

Btw: J-11A comes with Su-27 module but since it does not have any default missions included you can only use it from ME or quick mission creator.

[Ashayar]

2 minutes ago, draconus said:

Yes but only small part of switches are animated in game and not even all that are used as binds. Otoh some aircraft from the pack have almost all switches animated (F-15C) in model viewer but not programmed into the game.

Btw: J-11A comes with Su-27 module but since it does not have any default missions included you can only use it from ME or quick mission creator.

Thanks for the correction! I usually fly the SU33 and found a few buttons to be animated, but well, I don't know every module

[Callsign112]

4 hours ago, Ashayar said:

Hello there!

 

A little mistake: Some switches are animated (I think about every bind is) in FC3 planes. Even in the SU-25T, that's the case.

 

Just my two cents

 

Have a nice day!

I always take it as a good sign that someone is paying attention when being corrected on a public forum.

Thanks for pointing that out, but I was agreeing with something someone else said both in this thread and another. So if I misunderstood their request/wish, then my bad but the Su-25T isn't part of the FC3 plane set.

Here's your change.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Callsign112