reported Elec generators

[Oldfox]

Hey there,

Just a small question about electrical generators: is it expected to lose them if just going back on idle RPM ?

Had RPM to idle couple of times by accident and you just lose all systems, including INU alignement, but also flight controls, and just go straitgh to the ground, which feels a bit strange to me?

 

Is it a known issue or me ignoring how this works?

 

Thanks

[Raptor9]

Thats how it is. Same behavior occurs in other helicopters as well, like the Ka-50. You need to bring the power levers to Fly before turning the APU off, and need to turn it on before bringing the power levers to Idle.

[Oldfox]

So losing both engines means death? No autorotation possible?

[kgillers3]

13 minutes ago, Oldfox said:

So losing both engines means death? No autorotation possible?

If you don't keep your rotor rpm up yes. 

Not saying it's the easiest flight model to auto, but you can auto it. If you don't manage your rotor in any helicopter and it droops low enough you're going to crash. 

[Oldfox]

Impossible to auto for me, as soon as I put engine levers to idle, I lose all flight controls. 

[TheCrysinator]

Can confirm. Once you lose both engine or put them to idle you lose control over the aircraft. No reaction to cyclic or collective inputs. I (obviously) haven't flown a real Apache but this can't be realistic behaviour.

[kgillers3]

34 minutes ago, TheCrysinator said:

Can confirm. Once you lose both engine or put them to idle you lose control over the aircraft. No reaction to cyclic or collective inputs. I (obviously) haven't flown a real Apache but this can't be realistic behaviour.

I auto'd it, you're not lowering the collective fast enough nor managing your nr

Not saying it' auto's well in game but it auto's. 

In dcs you do have to have a small amount of collective in to maintain directional control, but if your rotor is drooping to where you have no electrical power then you're probably doomed

Edited March 29, 2022 by kgillers3

[TheCrysinator]

I auto'd it no prob, you're not lowering the collective fast enough nor managing your nr
Not saying it' auto's well in game but it auto's. 

I knew when the power loss would occur so I waited a second because anything else would be unrealistic and by that time I had ~75% rotor RPM, no generators and no control authority. I know it's a bad comparison but the Hind/Hip will lose both generators and you still have enough control authority to get it down even if the generators stay out (usually they come back with rotor RPM).

[kgillers3]

Just now, TheCrysinator said:

5 minutes ago, kgillers3 said:

I auto'd it no prob, you're not lowering the collective fast enough nor managing your nr
Not saying it' auto's well in game but it auto's. 

I knew when the power loss would occur so I waited a second because anything else would unrealistic and by that time I had ~75% rotor RPM, no generators and no control authority. I know it's a bad comparison but the Hind/Hip will lose both generators and you still have enough control authority to get it down even if the generators stay out (usually they come back with rotor RPM).

Not trying to be rude. But you're telling me that it doesn't auto like a hind or a mi8

[TheCrysinator]

Not trying to be rude. But you're telling me that it doesn't auto like a hind or a mi8

Exactly. Because it's hard for me to understand why you would lose all control when the generator bus goes out. That would be a major oversight that at least two cold war era helicopters didn't have.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

9 hours ago, TheCrysinator said:

I knew when the power loss would occur so I waited a second because anything else would be unrealistic and by that time I had ~75% rotor RPM, no generators and no control authority. I know it's a bad comparison but the Hind/Hip will lose both generators and you still have enough control authority to get it down even if the generators stay out (usually they come back with rotor RPM).

I think you might be underestimating the importance of keeping rotor RPM up - 75% is extremely low. It's also necessary for hydraulics, it prevents the rotor blades from coning up/bending, and most importantly without it you won't be able to arrest your descent at the end of the auto anyway.

Lowering the collective in the event of power loss must be IMMEDIATE. If you let rotor RPM drop below 90% you're probably too slow.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Flamin_Squirrel

[TheCrysinator]

I think you might be underestimating the importance of keeping rotor RPM up - 75% is extremely low. It's also necessary for hydraulics, it prevents the rotor blades from coning up/bending, and most importantly without it you won't be able to arrest your descent at the end of the auto anyway.
Lowering the collective in the event of power loss must be IMMEDIATE. If you let rotor RPM drop below 90% you're probably too slow.

I had the time to check again:
If you drop collective immediately after the "RPM low" warning you can still save it but RPM will drop to ~85% and won't recover even with 0 collective.

Don't get me wrong I just want to understand the Apache. Autorotation is easy in every other helicopter (Hind, Hip, Gazelle, Huey, Ka-50) and you have plenty of time to react. But the most modern one of them is unrecoverable if you're reaction time isn't perfect?

[kgillers3]

1 hour ago, TheCrysinator said:

9 hours ago, kgillers3 said:

Not trying to be rude. But you're telling me that it doesn't auto like a hind or a mi8

Exactly. Because it's hard for me to understand why you would lose all control when the generator bus goes out. That would be a major oversight that at least two cold war era helicopters didn't have.

It has to do with how the hydraulic pumps are driven on the accessory end of the transmission. Now I’m not saying it autos well. All I’ve ever said is it Autos but you have to keep your nr. It’s not an option. If you droop your rotor past a certain point in any helicopter it’s a death sentence, if you’re drooping them to generator cutoff then you’re right next to it, I’ve been able to get it back but I had to work at it. 

Try with engines at fly and just getting in good steady state. Then climb up pull the engines, and if you can’t get them to maintain on identify what you’re doing. I’d suggest doing it with some forward airspeed. If it gets outta wack reset. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by kgillers3

[kgillers3]

If you’d like I can share a track file so you can see my control inputs 

[Flamin_Squirrel]

18 minutes ago, TheCrysinator said:

I had the time to check again:
If you drop collective immediately after the "RPM low" warning you can still save it but RPM will drop to ~85% and won't recover even with 0 collective.

Don't get me wrong I just want to understand the Apache. Autorotation is easy in every other helicopter (Hind, Hip, Gazelle, Huey, Ka-50) and you have plenty of time to react. But the most modern one of them is unrecoverable if you're reaction time isn't perfect?

Don't let the nose drop. Pulling back on the cyclic will load the rotor bring RPM back up. Turning works too, but increases descent rate, so less ideal.

It's not easy though that's for sure.

[TheCrysinator]

If you’d like I can share a track file so you can see my control inputs 

That would be very helpful. It seems like cutting the collective completely and recover RPM while slowing down just doesn't apply for the Apache. When I cut the collective the nose drops and cyclic won't arrest it until I add collective again. However, that just drains my RPM.

[kgillers3]

2 hours ago, TheCrysinator said:

2 hours ago, kgillers3 said:

If you’d like I can share a track file so you can see my control inputs 

That would be very helpful. It seems like cutting the collective completely and recover RPM while slowing down just doesn't apply for the Apache. When I cut the collective the nose drops and cyclic won't arrest it until I add collective again. However, that just drains my RPM.

TerribleAuto.trk

There's 2 in there. 

Not a great one, made a lot of mistakes, almost lost all my rotor initially, had to get it back. I noticed for me how my controls are, it's hard to go from where my power levers are bound back to my collective control in time.

I learned from the huey, that you have to have some collective in for directional control in dcs

Edited March 29, 2022 by kgillers3

[TheCrysinator]

vor 48 Minuten schrieb kgillers3:

TerribleAuto.trk 621 kB · 1 Download

There's 2 in there. 

Not a great one, made a lot of mistakes, almost lost all my rotor initially, had to get it back. I noticed for me how my controls are, it's hard to go from where my power levers are bound back to my collective control in time.

I learned from the huey, that you have to have some collective in for directional control in dcs

 

Thank you very much for the track file. I could find the culprit. When I'm trimmed for cruise speed I don't have the necessary cyclic travel left that is required to arrest the nose down movement. Usually I don't have to worry about resetting trim because e.g. the Hind needs very gentle inputs even during auto-rotations. Today I learned..

[bradmick]

I'm definitely able to replicate this behavior. I can definitely say that the drag on the rotor is to high currently and doesn't allow you to recover the Nr after losing both engines (or bringing them to idle). The Nr never returns to 101%. In an auto, once established and with an application of aft cyclic, the rotor will recover to 101% and even start accelerating beyond that. Typically a slight amount of collective is required to maintian the rotor at 101%. For a D model the rate of descent is around 3400 fpm in an auto, and that'll vary with cyclic application and airspeed.

 

Bottom line: The rotor doesn't recover to 101% in a power off auto like it should currently.  

[BIGNEWY]

I have moved to bugs and problems for now and we will take a look at this. thanks

[kgillers3]

19 minutes ago, TheCrysinator said:

Thank you very much for the track file. I could find the culprit. When I'm trimmed for cruise speed I don't have the necessary cyclic travel left that is required to arrest the nose down movement. Usually I don't have to worry about resetting trim because e.g. the Hind needs very gentle inputs even during auto-rotations. Today I learned..

glad it helped, just keep with it and keep saving nr, like I said as is it’s not the easiest thing to auto but you can auto it. just keep playing with it and have fun.

@bradmick
 

[DeMonteur]

In autorotation when you go under certain RPM of main rotor you are not able to gain it back via autorotating and you are basically dead. I find out that in apache it is around 84%Nr. Anyway the controls in autorotation even with high RPM are too sluggish. I cannot do proper flare and I just deplete some speed and cushion the landing.

[bradmick]

This is accurate, you will 100% lose all control ability below a certain Nr. This is true of all helicopters.

Edited March 30, 2022 by bradmick

[BIGNEWY]

I have marked this reported as we do have some engine tweaks to come in future patches during early access. 

thanks

[FalcoGer]

Isn't that what the emergency hydraulic accumulator is for? I thought flight controls were mechanically linked to the rotor blades with hydraulic augmentation. Flight controls should respond. From all I have read, normal flight characteristics are expected during autorotation, except of course the yaw to the left and the fact that you have no torque. Rotor RPM needs to be maintained by diving. Sinkrate is minimized by maintaining aerodynamic trim.

Hydraulic or power failure is not mentioned anywhere near the dual engine failure in the TM. In fact it says that hydraulic pressure is enough to allow for 6 minutes of flight with no control inputs or 30 seconds with ridiculous inputs (cycling flight controls to full deflection left and right every second), which should be avoided.