correct as is TACAN A/A Bug Air Refueling

[Seether1980]

The bug with the non-functional Tacan navigation is still not complete fixed since the last update. With the update stable version the tanker is only visible if the A/A mode is deactivated. I think this behavior is wrong. I tested it in a mission with coldstart from the supercarrier. Maybe someone could confirm this. Thanks.

[Bankler]

This was marked "correct as is". Some elaboration would be nice. Should A/A TACAN mode *not* be used for airborne tankers? Note, I have no idea how it should work, but I'm a bit surprised. Is A/A mode only a figher-to-fighter yardstick thing then?

EDIT:

Okay, apparently it's not correct, but it's already reported here, with KC-135 pilots commenting (arguably not a super big deal perhaps, since the workaround with just deselecting A/A is simple, but sure, still wrong): 

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Bankler

[Seether1980]

I believe in an older version I switched to A/A to navigate to the tanker. Also in old videos on YouTube the behavior was different to now. Since the tacan fix ED has changed something. I can’t imagine that it is now so correct. But please, a short explanation by ED would bei fine.

[Darkali]

 

[UncleReiben]

This seems to go around in circles a lot... because there was a previous implementation that seemed right but technically wasn't, and now a bug that's apparent where A/A TACAN (the way it should work) doesn't work between human and AI TACAN equipment making the whole mess even more confusing.

TACAN A/A mode is supposed work based on the 63 channels of separation. Not necessarily "Fighter-to-Fighter" but Aircraft to Aircraft, including tankers. Some aircraft have TACAN equipment capable of providing bearing info, some don't. the 63 channels of separation requirement was noted in both the F/A-18 and F-14 manuals I poked into, and using A/A TACAN for a ranging option was also noted in the NATOPS for Aerial refueling.

How it works now:
if a Tanker is set to 32X, you dial in 32X, leave A/A off (treat as ground station), turn on T/R and it works

How it used to work:
if a tanker was set to 32X, you dial in 32X and turn on A/A as well as T/R and it works

How it should work:
If a tanker is set to 32X, you dial in 95X, and turn on A/A as well as T/R and it works

Why doesn't it work like it should?:
There's a thread somewhere where someone pointed it out, A/A TACAN yardstick doesn't seem to work between players and AI. @NineLine said he'd look into that if I recall.

So the two issues/bugs needing to be addressed are

1. A/A TACAN doesn't work between players and AI.

2. Tanker's TACAN equipment act like ground TACAN stations

Obviously we'd need 1 fixed before 2 since the latter is a good-ish workaround.

Edited April 30, 2022 by UncleReiben
Bad typo

[pete_auau]

52 minutes ago, UncleReiben said:

If a tanker is set to 32X, you dial in 96X, and turn on A/A as well as T/R and it works

confused on this  part   32x   and 96x

[UncleReiben]

1 hour ago, pete_auau said:

confused on this  part   32x   and 96x

Bad typo. 32X and 95X would be 63 channels of separation--I fix, sorry.

That's how A/A mode works in general. There's some bad channel combos to use for certain aircraft because of how their various RF equipment is installed, but generally, using A/A mode is basically telling the system to operate in that "yardstick" mode.

I never dug deep enough into the technical "why's" of that one... but 63 channels is half of the total amount of available channels for the given band (X or Y)

[USAF-Falcon87]

Unless things have changed in the 15 years since I retired (wait--it's been 15 YEARS already!??!?!!?), KC-135s should not have azimuth to the tanker on TACAN--just DME.  Only the KC-10 had azimuth (it also had DME).  That MAY have changed since my day, but since they say they are simulating a 2005-ish time frame, that should be accurate.

And not that it matters much in-game, but we would never use X channels for A/A TACAN--always Y, to keep from interfering with/being interfered with by ground-based TACANs.

[Ahmed]

What he said.... The KC-135 cannot provide bearing, and A/A mode needs to be used. No idea why ED is lately changing things that worked right into working wrong, and then marking them as correct as is.

[Chain_1]

18 hours ago, USAF-Falcon87 said:

Unless things have changed in the 15 years since I retired (wait--it's been 15 YEARS already!??!?!!?), KC-135s should not have azimuth to the tanker on TACAN--just DME.  Only the KC-10 had azimuth (it also had DME).  That MAY have changed since my day, but since they say they are simulating a 2005-ish time frame, that should be accurate.

And not that it matters much in-game, but we would never use X channels for A/A TACAN--always Y, to keep from interfering with/being interfered with by ground-based TACANs.

Current 135 guy here.  It hasn't changed.  We still use a/a t/r on our tacan and still only give dme.  If people want bearing they need a KC-10 or KC-46 now.

[Ahmed]

This is still marked correct as is without any apparent response from any ED representative. Can we get a clarification? Because not only real SMEs are confirming the obvious, but one can also prove that A/A mode is used in multiple documents over the net (especially F-16 docs).

Edited May 5, 2022 by Ahmed

[sgilewicz]

Ok, so if the AA mode can't be selected currently what do you do if the tanker TACAN code is the same as a nearby airfield.  I am running into this in the 3rd mission of Eastern Friendship.  The tanker TACAN is 31X but so is Senaki Air Base so the TACAN always defaults to Senaki and never the tanker.  Any thoughts?

[pete_auau]

14 minutes ago, sgilewicz said:

Ok, so if the AA mode can't be selected currently what do you do if the tanker TACAN code is the same as a nearby airfield.  I am running into this in the 3rd mission of Eastern Friendship.  The tanker TACAN is 31X but so is Senaki Air Base so the TACAN always defaults to Senaki and never the tanker.  Any thoughts?

yep   try using  your  radar  or  sa  page  to locate  the  tanker

[USAF-Falcon87]

On 5/2/2022 at 5:22 PM, Chain_1 said:

 If people want bearing they need a KC-10 or KC-46 now.

These kids today and their new-fangled doodads!!!!

[Chain_1]

On 5/7/2022 at 8:38 PM, sgilewicz said:

Ok, so if the AA mode can't be selected currently what do you do if the tanker TACAN code is the same as a nearby airfield.  I am running into this in the 3rd mission of Eastern Friendship.  The tanker TACAN is 31X but so is Senaki Air Base so the TACAN always defaults to Senaki and never the tanker.  Any thoughts?

My thought is that the mission is not designed accurately (in that respect, at least).  I think the same thing when people use victor for air refueling frequencies.  Our a/r radio is an ARC-164, it's UHF only.

[Dragon1-1]

Good to know. Is the initial rejoin request also made using that radio, or does it use another channel? 

[Chain_1]

Yes, everything goes through that radio.  Our other radios are used for things like ATC & C2.  Even if the ARC-164 failed for some reason, the frequency would still be the briefed uniform frequency.  Some jets, like the F-16, have "boom interphone" after a contact condition is established, but that would be pointless in DCS unless/until they make a boom operator minigame.

[sgilewicz]

Thanks pete_auau.  I am using the sa page and am able to find and link up with the tanker.  Chain_1, I thought the X channel strange in this mission because I spent a lot of time in the A-10C module and A2A Tacan always (as I remember) used the Y channel.  Nonetheless, I spent a solid week trying to figure this out on my own before coming here for much needed assistance.  Thanks guys!

[ExA4K]

ATP-56(B), Part 2, Chapter 5. Radio Procedures

506. d. Air-To-Air (A/A) TACAN

(1) To provide A/A TACAN ranging, the tanker and the receiver (one aircraft per receiver and tanker formation) should tune the assigned A/A TACAN channels 15 min before the RVCT.
The two designated channels will be 63 channels apart with the receiver setting the lower channel and the tanker the higher channel. The majority of receivers use the Y- channel but
some only have X-channel capability.
(2) A/A TACAN should be left in the A/A setting until the receiver reaches astern (boom) or the observation position (drogue)

And many more references throughout to the tanker setting up the A/A TACAN

I'll join the chorus: Like many others on here who have done this IRL by saying its NOT "correct as is", and all inter-plane TACAN homing is done on the A/A setting.  Some tankers have bearing capability allowing use of A/A range and/or bearing, but any TACAN equipped aircraft can utilise the 63ch ranging split to set up a Yardstick plan.

Edited May 25, 2022 by ExA4K
correction

[Wreywolf]

TAC works fine with aerodroms but no with tankers. Sometime ago everything was well fixed.

[dorianR666]

why is this marked correct as is? its not correct at all

[MARLAN_]

4 hours ago, dorianR666 said:

why is this marked correct as is? its not correct at all

"correct as is" is probably better understood as "intended" and in this case ED intended to not follow real world. Maybe they have some conflicting source, such as how we have a reduced lock range for our radars which seems like it was based on possibly a MiG-23 radar and not a F-16/F-18 radar. Perhaps Russian tanker TACAN systems work differently than in the US. Would still be nice to have this match the real world for US tanker TACAN's though.

Edit: I looked into this a bit and asked some of the SME's I know (F18 pilot and a KC10 flight engineer) -- if the tanker is broadcasting both bearing & range we would use T/R (no A/A) but if it was just broadcasting range then we would use A/A. The KC-135 should be range only while something like the KC-10 can transmit bearing & range. So in our DCS case it should be A/A mode since we don't have a vanilla tanker that is capable of both bearing & range.

Edit 2: they also say real world they would typically use link/radio/and pre-briefed locations much more likely than using yardstick.

Edited June 20, 2022 by MARLAN_

[vctpil]

I tried the A/A TACAN on the AV-8B with the S-3B and the KC-135MPRS. The Y channel was selected for both aircrafts on the ME.

It seems that the S-3B is using the X channel and the KC-135MPRS is using the Y channel.

[BIGNEWY]

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thank you

[MARLAN_]

Did some more digging this morning and asked a different F18 pilot in more depth (though this guy has only flown Rhinos, but I suspect the TCN functionality is mostly similar)

- You can't select A/A and T/R at the same time, it's one of the three (T/R, REC, A/A) (This correlates when I asked the first F18 pilot [who has flown the F18C] who also said T/R or A/A separately, I was a little confused because in DCS you can choose more than one at a time, but this new info helps clear that up)

- He has only worked with KC-135's so he can't speak to KC-10's and if T/R would be used when you get bearing information.

- He was very clear that you only receive range to a KC-135 and that you are in A/A mode only.

Still don't have a clear answer to what was previously mentioned regarding the KC-10 source, but that isn't in DCS anyway so I wouldn't worry about that right now anyways.