A/A with TGP and gun funnel

[silverdevil]

hello all.

thanks for reading. i have a question. i realize that the A10 is not meant for A/A. however i have a mission that i have flown more than 100 times and was able to finish with "success" once. the mission is to support friendly ground forces. there are some BTRs bearing down on a little town. there are also some Gvozdika's shelling. there are also some static AA emplacements. i can usually get all the ground targets. after some time two HINDs show up. i have to also get these folks.

so one question as per the subject of this post. how does one use TGP against air targets? seems to be difficult. like looking through a straw.

the second question. i cannot get the gun funnel to work. i read it was holding down the master mode button for several seconds. this is not working for me.

thanks.

[QuiGon]

2 hours ago, silverdevil said:

so one question as per the subject of this post. how does one use TGP against air targets? seems to be difficult. like looking through a straw.

It is indeed like looking through a straw, which is not very useful in A/A combat, so I would recommend to not use the TGP for A/A. If you're still far away and thus have some time to play untill the merge and if you are already visual on the bandit, then you can try to manually slew the TGP onto the bandit and try to establish a point track.
 

2 hours ago, silverdevil said:

the second question. i cannot get the gun funnel to work. i read it was holding down the master mode button for several seconds. this is not working for me.

thanks.

Master Mode Button long press is correct. This puts you into A/A mode. The Sidewinder cue as well as the GUN funnel should then appear on the HUD IIRC. I'm not sure if it matters, but better make sure you have Master Arm and Gun armed. If HUD is SOI you can even use DMS left/right to switch through various pre-stored aircraft wing spans.

[silverdevil]

38 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

Master Mode Button long press is correct. This puts you into A/A mode. The Sidewinder cue as well as the GUN funnel should then appear on the HUD IIRC. I'm not sure if it matters, but better make sure you have Master Arm and Gun armed. If HUD is SOI you can even use DMS left/right to switch through various pre-stored aircraft wing spans.

thank you. this is likely my issue. HUD needs to be SOI in AA mode as all else is irrelevant. i forget HUD is just another sensor. i will try and get back. clear skies!

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, silverdevil said:

hello all.

thanks for reading. i have a question. i realize that the A10 is not meant for A/A. however i have a mission that i have flown more than 100 times and was able to finish with "success" once. the mission is to support friendly ground forces. there are some BTRs bearing down on a little town. there are also some Gvozdika's shelling. there are also some static AA emplacements. i can usually get all the ground targets. after some time two HINDs show up. i have to also get these folks.

so one question as per the subject of this post. how does one use TGP against air targets? seems to be difficult. like looking through a straw.

the second question. i cannot get the gun funnel to work. i read it was holding down the master mode button for several seconds. this is not working for me.

thanks.

IIRC, AA mode on the TGP is not particularly brilliant since you can't slave anything to it (like, say, the AIM-9 seeker).  In addition, even though you can cue the TGP to a location with the HMCS using DMS right long, the TGP FOV is (for whatever reason) NOT displayed on the HMCS, so you otherwise have no particular idea where the TGP is pointing.

For helicopters, AG mode with POINT tracking seems to work, and has the benefit of being able to cue AG weapons (like Mavericks), and showing you where the target is on the HMCS.

[ASAP]

“HUD SOI to employ” is the mantra for AIM-9s. I think it’s generally the only time A-10 guys fly around HUD SOI from what I’ve heard. Otherwise you can’t uncage recharge the aim-9 seeker. The gun funnel should show up as long as you master/ gun arm. 
 

from everything I’ve read the TGP isn’t used much for air to air because unlike other platforms you can’t use a radar to slew it to the aircraft. They rely on visually acquiring the bandit. If you get a hostile track over the data link you could slew it that way I assume. For a helo I would just spot it visually and shoot an Aim-9 at it. 

[silverdevil]

5 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

IIRC, AA mode on the TGP is not particularly brilliant since you can't slave anything to it (like, say, the AIM-9 seeker).  In addition, even though you can cue the TGP to a location with the HMCS using DMS right long, the TGP FOV is (for whatever reason) NOT displayed on the HMCS, so you otherwise have no particular idea where the TGP is pointing.

For helicopters, AG mode with POINT tracking seems to work, and has the benefit of being able to cue AG weapons (like Mavericks), and showing you where the target is on the HMCS.

i had read an article on news site describing taking down an MI-8 with a gun. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-02-08-mn-937-story.html i wonder if a mav can get a HIND if its moving faster than armor. but in DCS it seems to work on a stationary. at least once.

 

 

[Yurgon]

5 hours ago, silverdevil said:

the second question. i cannot get the gun funnel to work. i read it was holding down the master mode button for several seconds. this is not working for me.

You'll need to select an aircraft to match against; the process is like QuiGon said,  Air-to-Air mastermode, HUD as SOI and then DMS Right/Left Short. You can use the IFFCC Test menu to select a bunch of pre-configured aircraft in case the Mi-24 isn't initially in the list, or just use "MAN RTY" or so for a rotary wing aircraft with a fixed rotor span.

Regarding the first question, as the others already said, it takes place purely in the visual arena. Forget the TGP, there's not really any use for it in A/A mode. With helicopters in particular, if you know which spot of sky to search, you'll probably see them visually before you find them in the TGP. And if you don't know which spot of sky to search, the TGP won't help either.

Just be aware that helicopters are quite the challenge for a fixed wing attacker. They're small, making them hard to spot (yes, even the fat Hind is pretty small from 2 or 3 miles out), you have to get very close for a good shot, you'll fly by fairly fast (even though "fast" and "A-10" don't usually belong in the same sentence ), and then they can turn on a dime and toss some angry 7,62 or even 30mm retribution your way if you didn't kill them in the first pass. Their flares can protect them from Sidewinders. But if you get the gun on target, it certainly doesn't take a lot of rounds to bring down any chopper.

Good hunting!

Edited April 16, 2022 by Yurgon
Added A2A mastermode to list

[QuiGon]

17 hours ago, ASAP said:

I think it’s generally the only time A-10 guys fly around HUD SOI from what I’ve heard.

I can't imagine this being true. I fly around with HUD SOI all the time, so I can use my HOTAS to change the active steerpoint or my weapon profile and sometimes I also use the HUD cursor to create markpoints.

[silverdevil]

i also fly with HUD SOI. i like to think of SOI in order of effectiveness by range.

TAD less than 160-20 from target

TGP less than 20-15 from target

MAV less than 10-5 from target

HUD / HMCS is the widest view area. farther away = less precision

one just needs to know which tool to use for each task. and its a preference per person.

[ASAP]

2 hours ago, QuiGon said:

I can't imagine this being true. I fly around with HUD SOI all the time, so I can use my HOTAS to change the active steerpoint or my weapon profile and sometimes I also use the HUD cursor to create markpoints.

Heard this from directly A-10 pilots. It’s a single seat fighter so people can do what they want but the general vibe I’ve heard is that they avoid HUD SOI. One pilots justification (slightly paraphrased to be more PC: “HUD SOI is like talking to a woke General officer. Every second your a part of that conversation is another chance to say something that will get you in trouble.  Say what you need to say and end the conversation ASAP”.

They don’t want to be HUD SOI because it’s way too easy to try to zoom in your TGP or manipulate the TAD and change your steerpoint or switch off of the correct weapons profile without realizing it. Then you roll in and you don’t have the right weapon called up or your bomb goes to the wrong steerpoint. It’s just as easy and harder to screw up to if you reach up with your left hand and change steerpoint/profiles with the UFCP.  HUD SOI isn’t wrong. It’s just considered best practice to use the UFCP. And keep TAD SOI unless you need it to be something else because that’s the SOI where you’ll do the least damage if with HOTAS errors. 
 

obviously in  DCS I’m going to guess nearly everyone is HUD SOI all the time because we don’t have a UFCP and the TAD is almost worthless compared to the real jet, and HOTAS errors aren’t going to get you killed or put bombs on friendlies. For what it’s worth after talking to that guy I mapped the steer and select rockers to the arrow keys on my keyboard. Works like a charm

Edited April 17, 2022 by ASAP

[silverdevil]

1 hour ago, ASAP said:

For what it’s worth after talking to that guy I mapped the steer and select rockers to the arrow keys on my keyboard.

great idea.

to be fair, i have had many conversations with generals in my army career. many of them were really cool and wanted to know what i thought as an enlisted man. it was the other officers that put the fear into us about said generals.

[ASAP]

1 minute ago, silverdevil said:

great idea.

to be fair, i have had many conversations with generals in my army career. many of them were really cool and wanted to know what i thought as an enlisted man. it was the other officers that put the fear into us about said generals.

Agreed about the generals. I’ve only met one  but he was awesome.  I just thought the analogy was amusing so I thought I’d share. 

[Ephedrin]

What I found to work best against helicopters is use the 9m‘s seeker head, you‘ll get the circle around the helo and then use your gun. One squirt is already enough. A hind doesn‘t shoot back (yet) so you can take your time closing in. 
 

shooting the missile works well against Migs or Su27 etc from below but is wasted against a Hind, they spam their flares and have plenty.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Ephedrin

[silverdevil]

well dumb me. i was still trying to figure this out since i posted. this weekend i finally got it. when HUD is SOI, switch to AA, then DMS left or right short toggles the sights. meh. i got good at kentucky windage though lol.

On 4/16/2022 at 5:37 PM, Yurgon said:

Air-to-Air mastermode, HUD as SOI and then DMS Right/Left Short.

yurgon stated this in a reply and i totally missed it. this user gets the prize. i wished he / she could have grabbed my head and pointed to the answer.   

[Yurgon]

34 minutes ago, silverdevil said:

i wished he / she could have grabbed my head and pointed to the answer.   

Well, QuiGon also referred to this HOTAS command.

But if it helps, I'll also slap you on the head Gibbs-style the next time I answer a question of yours.

 

[silverdevil]

lol

[Mogster]

On 4/17/2022 at 4:11 PM, ASAP said:

Heard this from directly A-10 pilots. It’s a single seat fighter so people can do what they want but the general vibe I’ve heard is that they avoid HUD SOI. One pilots justification (slightly paraphrased to be more PC: “HUD SOI is like talking to a woke General officer. Every second your a part of that conversation is another chance to say something that will get you in trouble.  Say what you need to say and end the conversation ASAP”.

They don’t want to be HUD SOI because it’s way too easy to try to zoom in your TGP or manipulate the TAD and change your steerpoint or switch off of the correct weapons profile without realizing it. Then you roll in and you don’t have the right weapon called up or your bomb goes to the wrong steerpoint. It’s just as easy and harder to screw up to if you reach up with your left hand and change steerpoint/profiles with the UFCP.  HUD SOI isn’t wrong. It’s just considered best practice to use the UFCP. And keep TAD SOI unless you need it to be something else because that’s the SOI where you’ll do the least damage if with HOTAS errors. 
 

obviously in  DCS I’m going to guess nearly everyone is HUD SOI all the time because we don’t have a UFCP and the TAD is almost worthless compared to the real jet, and HOTAS errors aren’t going to get you killed or put bombs on friendlies. For what it’s worth after talking to that guy I mapped the steer and select rockers to the arrow keys on my keyboard. Works like a charm

 

From a real world human factors standpoint that makes a lot of sense.

[QuiGon]

4 hours ago, silverdevil said:

yurgon stated this in a reply and i totally missed it. this user gets the prize. i wished he / she could have grabbed my head and pointed to the answer.   

Hmm, I guess I also have to make myself more clear next time

On 4/16/2022 at 8:18 PM, QuiGon said:

If HUD is SOI you can even use DMS left/right to switch through various pre-stored aircraft wing spans.

Edited May 9, 2022 by QuiGon