What do you think about burble effect ?

[Nealius]

We should be careful to separate the nose-suck/AoA issue in the wires from the burble issues. The AoA issue has existed long before the burble has.

On the subject of the burble, I find the updraft at the ramp to impact the Hornet significantly more than the Tomcat. I can easily handle the burble in the Tomcat, even with the sluggish TF-30s and not even tapping DLC, but the Hornet is so severely affected by the updraft I have to cut power in the wires to snag a 4-wire. Myself and everyone I fly with online has gone from _OK_ grades to 100% cut passes EGTL. 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Nealius

[markom]

For an inexperienced naval aviator like myself, it's really difficult for me to gauge whether it's me or the effect, but what I am experiencing, and would like to know whether this is it is:

I am approaching the carrier, ball is centered, and then just behind the carrier, I find myself abruptly way too high, and LSO yells "waveoff waveoff". Now, I know I am approaching slightly too slow and probably need to be a tad more aggressive, but is this how it manifests itself, or is it something else?

Does this effect go away if wake turbulence is disabled? 

[Nealius]

My understanding, per Victory's long-deleted Tomcat CASE I paper and this Naval Academy paper, is that there is a downdraft somewhere in the last half-mile of the grove, that bounces off the water and causes a mild updraft further out. I expect to see my aircraft sink in that last half-mile, requiring more power to stay on glidepath, then reducing power to prevent floating once out of the downdraft. Higher natural wind over the deck (vs. higher carrier speed) should result in a weaker burble effect.

This is what I experience in the Tomcat.

However in the Hornet, I have not experienced any evident downdraft, and I simply float for seemingly no reason. The only decent Hornet trap I've had since the burble was reducing power where the downdraft should be--essentially fabricating my own downdraft--and using the mysterious float to get the ball up again.

[joker62]

Tweaks regarding burble effect and FA-18 FM are still ongoing

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/302078-carrier-burble/?do=findComment&comment=4981175

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/303333-ob-hornet-performance-changes/?do=findComment&comment=4993660

However, the burble effect definitely needs to be improved. I'm not an FA-18 pilot, but I always refer to an excellent guide written by Pieterras "Aircraft_Carrier_Operating_Procedures_for_DCS_v01_8" https://forum.dcs.world/topic/261997-how-cyclic-ops-really-works- by-gb-and-pieter /

What is reported on page 77 is really interesting

Quote

Glideslope corrections in the pass should be made primarily with throttles. If required, a small nudge of the stick to" influence "the nose can be used. is used only if the inertia needs to be overcome. Again, POWER is the glideslope correction. The mechanics for power corrections are 3-part corrections. Always make 3-part power corrections. A 3-part power corrections means: - make the power correction, - make the counter correction, - reset to the new and improved neutral power point. As you get experience, you will do this hundreds of times in a pass. Throttles will constantly be moving as you follow the game plan and make 3 part power corrections. Videos of pilot's hands in the groove will testify for this. While DCS does not give the physical feedback ("seat of the pants") that you would experience in real life flying, it can still be practiced.

Still on p. 38 reads

Quote

At touchdown the pilot shall add MIL or MAX power as appropriate and prepare to bolter. ... Fly the ball all the way to touchdown. Landing should be a surprise.

From this it's clear that corrections such as power reduction to catch wire, pull down stick to catch wire and the like (i.e. expedients to limit burble effect in DCS) are not normally correct, consequently the current burble effect is not correct. So I understood it. For this I have disabled wake turbolence in the game options, to eliminate the burble effect, until it will be tuned correctly.

[Nealius]

18 minutes ago, joker62 said:

So I understood it. For this I have disabled wake turbolence in the game options, to eliminate the burble effect, until it will be tuned correctly.

I have Wake Turbulence disabled and still experience an incomplete burble effect in the Hornet.

[joker62]

1 hour ago, Nealius said:

I have Wake Turbulence disabled and still experience an incomplete burble effect in the Hornet.

Strange ... you certainly tried to do a new mission from scratch, right? Have you installed Mods? I've installed Navy Equipment Mod without any problems. Excuse silly question, but what wind and turbulence values did you set in the mission? In DCS, turbulence of 25 and more begins to affect your FA-18 during "groove". Same thing for wind: by setting a wind of 30 kts and a minimum carrier speed of 5 kts, you will have a wind on the deck equal to about 35 kts), so during "groove" you will see E-bracket and Velocity Vectory on your HUD that will dance a lot, and maintain correct FA-18's attitude until landing is not easy. But all these results existed even before the introduction of the new burble effect, and although they are interdependent, they have nothing to do with the burble effect we are talking about. Of course ED will have to review the whole thing and they are aware of it.

I'm sorry, I don't know how to help you.

[Nealius]

New missions, no turbulence, usually around 7kts natural wind, carrier at 20kts giving 27 WoD. No mods, mods, done both. 

[GumidekCZ]

2 hours ago, Nealius said:

New missions, no turbulence, usually around 7kts natural wind, carrier at 20kts giving 27 WoD. No mods, mods, done both. 

Are you sure that you don't have wake turbolence effect turned off in mission editor or gameplay tab settings?

[Nealius]

11 minutes ago, GumidekCZ said:

Are you sure that you don't have wake turbolence effect turned off in mission editor or gameplay tab settings?

It is off, as stated earlier. I haven't seen any documentation saying that the burble is enabled or disabled by the wake turbulence setting. Additionally, even if it were to be disabled with wake turbulence off, it still appears to cause an updraft at the ramp. 

Edited August 31, 2022 by Nealius

[Stearmandriver]

I definitely saw a large difference in bubble behavior when I disabled wake turbulence. It basically went back to how it was before they added the burble.  It'll be nice to have a realistic burble in the Hornet and be able to turn wake back on, but the way things stand now with the messed-up burble combined with the nose-suck bug in the Hornet flight model, wake is staying off for me! 

[acerus77]

Am 31.8.2022 um 16:07 schrieb Nealius:

It is off, as stated earlier. I haven't seen any documentation saying that the burble is enabled or disabled by the wake turbulence setting. Additionally, even if it were to be disabled with wake turbulence off, it still appears to cause an updraft at the ramp. 

 

I also don´t seem to get rid of it. And the updraft happening at the ramp is wrong, no? Shouldn´t the updraft come first and the downdraft at the ramp?  Right now i have to force the plane into the Deck to catch a 4 wire otherwise i would float nose high over the Deck, never expieriencing a downdraft.

Edited September 4, 2022 by acerus77

[GumidekCZ]

IT IS A MESS, I hope somebody from ED team will look at it and fix it, at least till the end of the this year hopefully.

[deeleyer]

I had burble with the wake option off. I suppose the problem was I had this option off long before burble was implemented and it didn't get sync or something like that. I had to turn wake on, exit, and turn wake off again to get everything working correctly (wake off and burble off).

Strange, but this was my case.

Edited September 3, 2022 by deeleyer

[Nealius]

2 hours ago, acerus77 said:

Shouldn´t the updraft come first and the downdraft at the ramp?

More or less correct, from USN research papers and pilot accounts I've read. 

[GumidekCZ]

26 minutes ago, Nealius said:

More or less correct, from USN research papers and pilot accounts I've read. 

But there is huge huge difference between up/downdraft which make you sink or raise and some invisible pitchup force which changes your AOA violently. Even if you have this wake effect off, there is a reported -long time unfixed effect of sudden nose down effect just before touchdown (even on airfield, confirmed no so long time ago).

[Nealius]

2 hours ago, GumidekCZ said:

But there is huge huge difference between up/downdraft which make you sink or raise and some invisible pitchup force which changes your AOA violently. Even if you have this wake effect off, there is a reported -long time unfixed effect of sudden nose down effect just before touchdown (even on airfield, confirmed no so long time ago).

Which is a separate bug from the burble effect. It isn't relevant to the burble discussion.

[fmedges]

If you turn off wake turbulence in the options then the burble is removed. I'm doing this until it is revised.

[markom]

I finally found the will to turn off the burble and give it a try... I got _OK_ LSO score on the first try. I usually get... a lot less from the paddles.

While it feels like cheating a little bit, I am also inclined to keep it off to increase the entertainment value of my gaming time.

Edited September 12, 2022 by markom

[GumidekCZ]

My last experience with very similar inputs(only gentle) to my controls as seen in real carrier landing (mission adjusted for similar estimated wind speed). Aimed little high ball, but than I was smashed by invisible elephant on deck = sudden nose high, than huge nose down which ended as 2 wire, 3 point landing. Very Poor simulation indeed.

I'm still waiting for ED response with plans to fix it -ASAP.

[cm2]

So Is it fixed yet the burble effect?

[D1CE]

On 12/19/2022 at 4:21 AM, cm2 said:

So Is it fixed yet the burble effect?

Not yet. I spent my whole day to practice and couldn't manage to solve C grade and 3PTS caused by that exaggerated Burble.

tbh just to finish my day I did a last try after 6 touch&go with the same issue and landed with an got _OK_ pass! Can't believe how

[McVittees]

I haven’t touched the hornet in months as I’ve been flying the ‘14 for my Air to Air hit. Thought landing the hornet would be a nice easy break from our more analogue friend…then I flew over the ramp. Holly crap. Burble and pitching over the ramp is crazy.  This really doesn’t seem right…certainly can’t fly the ball to touch down.  F14 landing is waaaaay easier.  Who would thought?

[macedk]

It needs tweaking.

[Thomas_LOLW]

It took me some time but meanwhile I manage to land despite burble effect on wire 2-4 in 95% of all cases. I still get C ratings, but I do not care, since I use the Bankler mission for training and get 65-70 points in most cases. 

Therefore I think the effect is ok and can be handled with some exercise and training, but the LSO ratings need improvement.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Thomas_LOLW

[fagulha]

5 hours ago, Thomas_LOLW said:

It took me some time but meanwhile I manage to land despite burble effect on wire 2-4 in 95% of all cases. I still get C ratings, but I do not care, since I use the Bankler mission for training and get 65-70 points in most cases. 

Therefore I think the effect is ok and can be handled with some exercise and training, but the LSO ratings need improvement.

 

That´s the ground effect. The burble effect is in the back of the boat (a few feet from the Rundown) not in the wires.