unable to reproduce The Viper lost its snap !

[hellking]

F-16 has great flight model, but I couldn't help notice something.. When I roll and stop rolling quickly, the roll stops instantly. I think I would expect some (small) wobbling or settling before the flight controls can stop the roll. I understand that F-16 is fly by wire, but there is a physical limit to how well FBW can follow flight inputs (because mechanical parts take time to move, maximum forces are limited, control system is not perfect etc.)

[Emmy]

I dunno. Video from Viper Demos and the TBirds all pretty much show that when they stop a roll it just flat stops. Could be the skill of the pilots but...

[Burt]

I have the R3L and Viper grip and when doing 1/4 rolls the viper use to snap in place. Please bring it back. 

[Burt]

Go to 8:00 on this video. 

 

[RuskyV]

Roll response has been adjusted try adding just a click or two on the roll pressure in the R3 software this might help.

[Burt]

Yeah I did but the Viper still lost something. I’m gonna miss bumping the stick and feeling that snap. It just feels like a loose glove now and I know I just have to get use to it. 

[Burt]

Here’s another 4 Point go to 5:35 Please don’t get me wrong I love the New Viper updates especially for BFM which I mainly play. But I feel it has lost its snap with the R3L and actually feels great now with my center Virpil/F18 stick. Just feels alittle loose. 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Burt

[darkman222]

Why don't you just remove all input curves in DCS and on the stick ? Then try to recreate what you want to achieve and compare it with the real life video? Maybe post an in game video capture if possible or at least the track file? It's very hard to judge if we don't see what you experience.

Edit: of course we know what you are talking about, but without a video or track file we just can't judge it.

Edited June 14, 2022 by darkman222

[Burt]

Okay sure will darkman222, it will probably be this weekend before I can get to this. I don't use any curves in the DCS axis tune and only use pressure adjustment for Roll and Pitch in the Realsimulator software. Thanks ! I'll check for adjustments. 

[Sinclair_76]

Can you make a screenshot of your R3 settings?

[Burt]

Well after the last update I’m at pitch 8.05 Roll 2.95.  Everything else is default. I’m actually still tweaking. I haven’t messed with the NASA or BFA levels. Zero Axis Tuning in DCS settings. I'm at Program 6 so far. 

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Burt

[Burt]

The jet does not lock in the roll or pitch anymore. Have to to retune-adapt.

[RuskyV]

4 hours ago, Burt said:

. I haven’t messed with the NASA or BFA levels. Zero Axis Tuning in DCS settings. I'm at Program 6 so far. 

The NASA will only adjust the offset of the force you already have set, it’s purpose is to compensate for the wrist being slightly weaker when rolling to the right. I have this set to about 115 but it’s personal, the setting you have being so low for roll force you might not even feel the difference.

BFA just leave alone unless you want a bigger dead zone in the stick before any movement.

You could try is adjusting the force up a bit, making it less sensitive but also allowing a slight increase in stick deflection giving you more travel before it beeps. As an example I have mine set to 4.78 (from memory).

Have a look through the bug reporting (don’t want to derail the thread) as it also appears some issues are being tracked around roll and adverse yaw, especially with the landing/refuel gains of the flight control system. This could be something to factor in.

[Burt]

Rgrt ! Thank you 

[SCPanda]

On 6/13/2022 at 2:28 AM, Burt said:

I have the R3L and Viper grip and when doing 1/4 rolls the viper use to snap in place. Please bring it back. 

I have also experienced the same issue.

Before the FLCS update, the Viper rolls slower and was less responsive (which means you need more roll axis input to achieve a high roll rate), but it was very snappy. When you wanted to stop the roll, you let go of the stick and the jet would stop rolling immediately, you could also witness the flaperon immediately deflecting to counter the inertia to stop the roll, which made the Viper really snappy and easy to perform a 4 point roll. 

After the recent FLCS update, the Viper is indeed more responsive and rolls quicker, which I really enjoy, but it lost its snap on the roll axis. Now, when you roll and want to stop the roll by letting go of the stick, the jet will over-roll a lot and it just takes too long to stop the roll and the FLCS isn't doing a good job to counter the roll inertia as well as before. In other words, it's not as snappy as before. The FLCS response when you want to stop the roll feels quite lazy. 

All of my feedback written above is for a clean Viper setup with no external loads or pylons, and I haven't changed my stick setup. FYI, I also use a FSSB R3L but my friends using a TM Warthog also shared the same feedback as mine. So I don't think this issue is due to user input but the WIP DFLCS itself. However, since I have never flown a real Viper, I wouldn't know if its current behavior is realistic or not. Whether this issue is a bug or not, I don't know, but I did like the snap it had before (just the snap, not the slow roll rate and lack of responsiveness it had before). Just sharing my feedback. That's all. 

Edit: I see ED marked this thread as "Cannot reproduce and missing track file." But honestly, I don't think a track file will really show the issue. It's probably better to do a side by side comparison of the old FLCS vs the new FLCS by using the stable and OB version on this issue. Particularly, observe the time it takes to stop and roll and how flaperon reacts when letting go of the stick. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by SCPanda

[Dragon1-1]

A track file will show your inputs and how the jet responds. The testers might be used to the new FLCS by now, and will correct by force of habit. A track will highlight what's wrong better than trying to describe it.

From what I heard from Viper drivers IRL, it was really snappy. One of the things they needed to adjust to when switching was remembering not to recenter the stick when trying to stop the roll, because it would stop the moment the force stopped.

[Burt]

Exactly my point SCPanda ! It doesn’t matter adding more pressure in the roll the snappiness at attention of the Viper is not there. I’m glad someone else understands what I’m getting at here. The Viper is very responsive with a tap of the R3L and the wings would kinda wobble as it stops the roll. The video @ 5:35 shows that snap. Yes you can tap roll left a 1/4 turn but now we must yank right a hair to stop. I hope for a slight adjustment in the future. It’s a hell of a Dogfighter now for sure !

Hopefully the Testers are using a R3L pressure sensing base. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Burt

[=OPS=Slider]

You don't really need to have that base to notice it's way different compared to how it was before the update. To be fair, that roll rate caught me off guard on my first take off with the new FM. Had to save it with the rudder... To be fair, it kinda feels like the Su-27 but on steroids. It has quite a lot of inertia, but it reacts quicker since the Viper is smaller.

Since we are discussing the new FM here, MPO is "funny". Try to use it at more or less 260 kias and push the stick full forward. You can add some roll for "extra fun". 

EDIT: Completely missed Panda's post, but he's on point. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by =OPS=Slider

[Burt]

Haha yeah it kinda does. Yeah I did the MPO flip thingy and it is kinda fun trying to recover. The jet feels good at center stick with my Virpil and Hornet grip too. 

[Valk]

15 hours ago, SCPanda said:

I have also experienced the same issue.

Before the FLCS update, the Viper rolls slower and was less responsive (which means you need more roll axis input to achieve a high roll rate), but it was very snappy. When you wanted to stop the roll, you let go of the stick and the jet would stop rolling immediately, you could also witness the flaperon immediately deflecting to counter the inertia to stop the roll, which made the Viper really snappy and easy to perform a 4 point roll. 

After the recent FLCS update, the Viper is indeed more responsive and rolls quicker, which I really enjoy, but it lost its snap on the roll axis. Now, when you roll and want to stop the roll by letting go of the stick, the jet will over-roll a lot and it just takes too long to stop the roll and the FLCS isn't doing a good job to counter the roll inertia as well as before. In other words, it's not as snappy as before. The FLCS response when you want to stop the roll feels quite lazy. 

All of my feedback written above is for a clean Viper setup with no external loads or pylons, and I haven't changed my stick setup. FYI, I also use a FSSB R3L but my friends using a TM Warthog also shared the same feedback as mine. So I don't think this issue is due to user input but the WIP DFLCS itself. However, since I have never flown a real Viper, I wouldn't know if its current behavior is realistic or not. Whether this issue is a bug or not, I don't know, but I did like the snap it had before (just the snap, not the slow roll rate and lack of responsiveness it had before). Just sharing my feedback. That's all. 

Edit: I see ED marked this thread as "Cannot reproduce and missing track file." But honestly, I don't think a track file will really show the issue. It's probably better to do a side by side comparison of the old FLCS vs the new FLCS by using the stable and OB version on this issue. Particularly, observe the time it takes to stop and roll and how flaperon reacts when letting go of the stick. 

 

Couldn't have written it any better. I'm also a FSSB R3L user and this is my experience as well (although the stick shouldn't matter that much). I know, it's still WIP, but for me personally, this issue really more than offsets the recent improvements.

[Burt]

As said in another post I think it lost its damper in the roll, absolutely love the pull though ! I went from a 5 lbs pitch and a 2.45 Roll to 8 pitch and 4-5 roll. That’s a big deference in pressure, but again love the pull.

I think they consider this a controller/setting bug issue which is not. It’s clearly missing it’s point. 

[JIMJAM]

Its been a long time but I have time a simulator at KSSC. I saw really quickly why they added some movement because of pilots injuring their wrist. I recall after only 15 minutes or so it felt like you were controlling the plane with your mind and not moving the stick. In DCS I use the TM WH HOTAS and its set wth zero deadzone and as sensitive as it gets. I haven't flown the 16 in weeks but today flew it and it handled like a wet blanket. I knew the fm had been changed and wondered why??? Rolls are crisp and very easy to stop. I don't recall ever getting sloppy and having the plane continue rolling once input had stopped. Maybe with some outboard mounted ordinance it might but during my sim sessions block c none were loaded.

But yeah I don't care for it now.

[RuskyV]

since we are now talking about the FBW system, bank left and right when you have the gear down and watch how much adverse yaw there is, makes corrections to lining up with the runway really difficult.

 

[Burt]

Yeah , hoping for slight adjustments/ corrections to be made in the near future.

[darkman222]

New patch has been rolled out. How is it? Has it been addressed? I can't try for myself in the next days unfortunately.