Matra R530EM maximum speed?

[edineygomes]

What is the maximum speed of this missile? In tacview it goes up to approximately mach 1.60 and then loses speed. On the internet it says it can reach mach 2.7. I launched a Tu-22M3 that was at mach 1.05 at a distance of 2.5nm and the missile didn't even come close

[razo+r]

At what altitude did you launch and at what altitude does it say can the missile reach M2.7?

[IvanK]

The quoted (RAAF source Mirage IIIO weapons Manual) Average gain in speed Mach 0.9 over launch. It was a Clunker of a missile.

[edineygomes]

2 hours ago, razo+r said:

At what altitude did you launch and at what altitude does it say can the missile reach M2.7?

I was at 10,000ft, Is he that bad at this altitude?

1 hour ago, IvanK said:

The quoted (RAAF source Mirage IIIO weapons Manual) Average gain in speed Mach 0.9 over launch. It was a Clunker of a missile.

It's not worth taking it then. I hope the super 530F is a little better 

[Sealpup]

Its purpose is providing a really big boom against bombers and the like. Not all that much more.

[Vek17]

It is pretty slow, but it is surprisingly capable within shorter range engagements. Slow but long burn time.

[riojax]

On 8/10/2022 at 4:02 AM, IvanK said:

The quoted (RAAF source Mirage IIIO weapons Manual) Average gain in speed Mach 0.9 over launch. It was a Clunker of a missile.

This manual talks about R.530K missile and F1CE had the R.530F those are different missiles, about the F you can have public but official info in ODIN:
https://odin.tradoc.army.mil/mediawiki/index.php/Matra_R.530_French_Short-Range_Air-to-Air_Missile

About the current R.530F implementation is clearly wrong, launched at M1.08 @8000ft only can get M1.50 (I almost was able to overtake it once jettison tanks )

Edited August 12, 2022 by riojax

[edineygomes]

At 33,000 feet the missile reached mach 2.4.
The target was 3.5 nautical miles away. The range of this missile is really very short.

[sedenion]

1 hour ago, riojax said:

This manual talks about R.530K missile and F1CE had the R.530F those are different missiles, about the F you can have public but official info in ODIN:
https://odin.tradoc.army.mil/mediawiki/index.php/Matra_R.530_French_Short-Range_Air-to-Air_Missile

About the current R.530F implementation is clearly wrong, launched at M1.08 @8000ft only can get M1.50 (I almost was able to overtake it once jettison tanks )

Don't bee misleaded by names. The "R 530K" is apparently simply an export version of the "R 530" which is the current available missile coming with the Mirage F1 in DCS, so to be simple "R 530K" and "R 530" are the same. I don't think there is such thing as an "R 530 F", except as a in-between prototype or early developpement or export name. What exists is Super 530, which was, I think, later specified as Super 530 F to differentiate it from the Super 530 D that comes with the Mirage 2000. The Super 530 is indeed a totally different missile than the R 530...

Anyway the Mirage F1 indeed can fire the Super 530 F (not the Super 530 D), but it isn't available yet in DCS.

Edited August 12, 2022 by sedenion

[riojax]

1 hour ago, sedenion said:

Don't bee misleaded by names. The "R 530K" is apparently simply an export version of the "R 530" which is the current available missile coming with the Mirage F1 in DCS, so to be simple "R 530K" and "R 530" are the same. I don't think there is such thing as an "R 530 F", except as a in-between prototype or early developpement or export name.

No, the exportation 530K don't use Plastargol as fuel (newers use Isolane), the 530F do uses it and it's a lot more powerful.

About the missile, you can see the spanish 530 FE, IR and EM, and the South African 530 FZ. And yes, those exists and are not the same than the Super 530F.

Edited August 12, 2022 by riojax

[sedenion]

2 minutes ago, riojax said:

No, the exportation 530K don't use Plastargol as fuel, the 530F do uses it and it's a lot more powerful.

About the missile, you can see the spanish 530 FE, IR and EM, and the South African 530 FZ EM. And yes, those exists and are not the same than the Super 530F.

That was even more complicated than I thought, thanks for the detailled explanation.

[riojax]

2 minutes ago, sedenion said:

That was even more complicated than I thought, thanks for the detailled explanation.

Yep, the missile is a modular 2 stage, one for acceleration and other to sustain the speed.

 

 

[IvanK]

8 hours ago, riojax said:

No, the exportation 530K don't use Plastargol as fuel (newers use Isolane), the 530F do uses it and it's a lot more powerful.

Err what are you saying here ?

To me you are saying R530K DOESENT use Plastargol and imply therfore it uses isolane ????

Anyway if your argument is that the R530F is a better missile (due propellant type) than say the R530K ... what are your sources ?

A casual internet search shows Plastargol as the standard propellant used in the R530 and Isolane in the Super R530 series

I put it to you that in terms of kinematic performance there is no difference between the the R530K and the R530F if you have references that say otherwise It would be great to see them.

As others have pointed out I think there is confusion here between the R530K which is effectively the same as the R530F with the later generation missile the Super R530F

[sedenion]

25 minutes ago, IvanK said:

 Super R530F

(This is "Super 530", without R... the hell of Matra's names "conventions"... )

Edited August 12, 2022 by sedenion

[Tango3B]

On 8/10/2022 at 6:02 AM, IvanK said:

The quoted (RAAF source Mirage IIIO weapons Manual) Average gain in speed Mach 0.9 over launch. It was a Clunker of a missile.

Right.

30 minutes ago, IvanK said:

Err what are you saying here ?

To me you are saying R530K DOESENT use Plastargol and imply therfore it uses isolane ????

Anyway if your argument is that the R530F is a better missile (due propellant type) than say the R530K ... what are your sources ?

A casual internet search shows Plastargol as the standard propellant used in the R530 and Isolane in the Super R530 series

I put it to you that in terms of kinematic performance there is no difference between the the R530K and the R530F if you have references that say otherwise It would be great to see them.

As others have pointed out I think there is confusion here between the R530K which is effectively the same as the R530F with the later generation missile the Super R530F

You know that it was Plastargol as the standard propellant so why even trying to discuss it. You were, unlike me, a real Mirage pilot so please stay away from "discussing" that stuff with these guys, please. We will always find some guys knowing "better" than us but there is absolutely no point in doing this. Especially weapon or radar realated stuff, so...

[riojax]

5 hours ago, IvanK said:

To me you are saying R530K DOESENT use Plastargol and imply therfore it uses isolane ????

No, ok I wil try on simple English:

- R.530K: Only used Plastargol (SNPE Antoinette)
- R.530F: Used old engines at first and later used Isolane (SNPE Madeleine)
- Super 530F: Only used Butalane CTPB composite (SNPE Angèle)

 

5 hours ago, Tango3B said:

Right.

You know that it was Plastargol as the standard propellant so why even trying to discuss it. You were, unlike me, a real Mirage pilot so please stay away from "discussing" that stuff with these guys, please. We will always find some guys knowing "better" than us but there is absolutely no point in doing this. Especially weapon or radar realated stuff, so...

This thread is becoming a bit rude and seems that there are an "official line" to follow about this regardless of others say or simply logic. Ok, I will take your word and there is no point to continue. So long, and thanks for all the fish.

[IvanK]

Ok Rojax now I see what you are saying. Would be interesting to see the difference the move to the Isolane propellant would make to the "F" version.

[riojax]

5 hours ago, IvanK said:

Ok Rojax now I see what you are saying. Would be interesting to see the difference the move to the Isolane propellant would make to the "F" version.

The main difference is the ISp.
- Plastargol + Al additive: ISp(vac) ~205s
- Isolane     + Al additive: ISp(vac) ~259s

As fast and dirty thumb rule this can mean a +26.3% dV(vac) increment.
If you want to know more details, this was a direct implementation from the Diamant launchers R&D

Edited August 13, 2022 by riojax

[IvanK]

That is a really impressive increase.

Am I interpreting this correctly that "+26.3% dV(vac) increment." means 26.3% increase in nozzle velocity in a vacuum ?

[GrmlZ]

On 8/10/2022 at 4:01 AM, edineygomes said:

What is the maximum speed of this missile? In tacview it goes up to approximately mach 1.60 and then loses speed. On the internet it says it can reach mach 2.7. I launched a Tu-22M3 that was at mach 1.05 at a distance of 2.5nm and the missile didn't even come close

As always those maximum mach numbers are a best case scenario and in most cases the missile will not even get close to it. But in a best case scenario it can.

I got the R.530s to go mach 3, though that is from a jet going Mach 2. And getting the F1 to mach 2 with a full missile load takes a while.

Tacview calls the 530s R3 btw.

 

[riojax]

13 hours ago, IvanK said:

That is a really impressive increase.

Am I interpreting this correctly that "+26.3% dV(vac) increment." means 26.3% increase in nozzle velocity in a vacuum ?

No, dV is due a lack of delta symbol in my keyboard (and laziness to cut&paste it) and yes, this data is for vacuum; anyway those type of propellant usually don't have a dramatic loss on atmospheric. About the nozzle out velocity curve (in A-A missiles isn't constant), in this case it's almost the same, and this was the really hard part, due to do that is necessary to make a really hard research on the solid fuel cake and core shape, additives, nozzle shape, etc.

Edited August 14, 2022 by riojax

[Harlikwin]

On 8/12/2022 at 10:05 PM, riojax said:

No, ok I wil try on simple English:

- R.530K: Only used Plastargol (SNPE Antoinette)
- R.530F: Used old engines at first and later used Isolane (SNPE Madeleine)
- Super 530F: Only used Butalane CTPB composite (SNPE Angèle)

 

This thread is becoming a bit rude and seems that there are an "official line" to follow about this regardless of others say or simply logic. Ok, I will take your word and there is no point to continue. So long, and thanks for all the fish.

Do you happen to know if the seekers were also improved between early/late variants of the 530, either the radar one or the IR one. 

 

[riojax]

On 8/15/2022 at 9:44 PM, Harlikwin said:

Do you happen to know if the seekers were also improved between early/late variants of the 530, either the radar one or the IR one.

As far I know the EM uses the same for all R.530s (R.530K, R.530F, etc. but not Super 530F) using EMD radars (like Cyrano IV) the AD.26 sensor by SAT. For the IR version it uses the all-aspect AD.3501. Anyway the sensor is modular and squadron interchangeable, maybe local companies with SAT help did upgrades but I don't know about it.

P.S. The Super 530F used the Super AD.26 EM sensor, an improved version.

Edited August 17, 2022 by riojax

[Rex854Warrior]

On 8/12/2022 at 1:19 PM, riojax said:

This manual talks about R.530K missile and F1CE had the R.530F those are different missiles, about the F you can have public but official info in ODIN:
https://odin.tradoc.army.mil/mediawiki/index.php/Matra_R.530_French_Short-Range_Air-to-Air_Missile

About the current R.530F implementation is clearly wrong, launched at M1.08 @8000ft only can get M1.50 (I almost was able to overtake it once jettison tanks )

 

I wouldn't be so sure, that rounded nose is awful for drag, it's an order of magnitude more draggy than a shaped ogiva in the supersonic regime. And it should count for roughly half of the overall drag generated by the missile in supersonic with a shaped ogiva so yeah... It's bad.

It makes sense that they'd make it fly low supersonic, it's just impossible to go any faster without massively increasing the diameter/length and drag of the missile to house more propellant.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Rex854Warrior