The Hind and the AP channels.

[Krez]

Taking the advice of real helicopter pilots, I decided to try to fly the Hind with the AP channels turned off.
I have a WinWing Orion Stick and throttle and the TFRP rudder pedals.
I usually fly with the yaw channel off anyway.
Last night I tried with all three off and after about 10 minutes of flight, it seems to be much easier to control with the AP channels off, especially landing.
I flew like this for about 2 hours on Enigma's server.
I then went back to having the pitch and roll channels on and it seems sluggish compared to having them off.
I think I'll continue to fly with them off.

[AeriaGloria]

2 hours ago, Krez said:

Taking the advice of real helicopter pilots, I decided to try to fly the Hind with the AP channels turned off.
I have a WinWing Orion Stick and throttle and the TFRP rudder pedals.
I usually fly with the yaw channel off anyway.
Last night I tried with all three off and after about 10 minutes of flight, it seems to be much easier to control with the AP channels off, especially landing.
I flew like this for about 2 hours on Enigma's server.
I then went back to having the pitch and roll channels on and it seems sluggish compared to having them off.
I think I'll continue to fly with them off.

With them on, how often do you use trim button? 

The AP should add about 18% authority, so it might make it feel more sluggish but close to trimmed attitude you should actually have a little more authority. 
 

If you trim and say pitch or roll 5-10 degrees from the last attitude you trimmed in, the AP over saturated and bottoms out, runs out of authority and makes things difficult 

[Krez]

With them on, I trim frequently. She is stable, but I find it sluggish.
With the channels off she is surprisingly nimble. I think I enjoy it more.

[AeriaGloria]

8 hours ago, Krez said:

With them on, I trim frequently. She is stable, but I find it sluggish.
With the channels off she is surprisingly nimble. I think I enjoy it more.

But with trim button or trim hat? They do very different things 

Trim button: when pressed turns off AP, when released resets AP to hold current attitude (similar to Ka-50 AP where you press trim to hold attitude)

Trim hat: moves the stick without affecting AP. It only tells AP there is a new center point and to not fight it.
 

For example if you trim for a hover, then go 260 kmh and trim only with the hat, the -5 degrees pitch needed to maintain 260 kmh will mean that the AP which is trying to hold you in a hover with a pitch of +3 degrees will be almost at its limit trying to pitch you up. If you did the same thing with trim button once you reached 260 kmh, you would have “centered” your AP authority and given yourself the most smooth flying. 
 

Not sure if that will help you, I hope the manual goes into the differences of trim button and trim hat when it comes to their interaction with AP 

Edited August 27, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[Krez]

Maybe my problem is not holding the trim button while I move the collective?

[Sacarino111]

7 hours ago, Krez said:

Maybe my problem is not holding the trim button while I move the collective?

Hi.
Deffinitivelly yes. Holding the button makes it easyer. but for big mouvements it can get too "out of controll".

Saludos.

Saca111

[Cr33p3r]

once I get into stable flight forward, I hit the autotrim button. then I use the individual pitch and roll trim buttons to balance things along with throttle adjustments for stable flight.

[Lurker]

On 8/26/2022 at 4:57 PM, Krez said:

Taking the advice of real helicopter pilots, I decided to try to fly the Hind with the AP channels turned off.
 

Have these real helicopter pilots ever flown a real Hind before?

[Hiob]

@BIGNEWY

Considering the ongoing confusion with the Trimm/SAS/AP-Augmentation of Helicopters, especially Hind and Apache, wouldn't it make sense for ED to consult the SMEs, and give kind of an "official" documentation on

a) what exactly they do (can do, can't do)
b) how or  to what extend they are modelled in DCS (and perhaps why)
c) how they are supposed to be operated (in game/ in reality if there's a difference)
 

I guess, the information is out there already - but kind of scattered and/or unclear. Maybe that would lessen some of the "frustration" around the topic?

It is always difficult to see how big the problem really is from the wake it draws in the forum. It "feels" like a rather big issue here, but it could as well be a neglectable problem. I don't know.

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

regarding the Mi-24 AP the team are working on a pitch fluctuation issue, we will also be updating the manual in the future with a better explanation on the AP channels so please be patient, the best practice is to have all three channels on. 

Thanks

[admiki]

2 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, 

regarding the Mi-24 AP the team are working on a pitch fluctuation issue, we will also be updating the manual in the future with a better explanation on the AP channels so please be patient, the best practice is to have all three channels on. 

Thanks

Finally

[Cr33p3r]

Just FYI, i have a button programmed for auto-trim. Once I get level and moving, hit the button to turn it on. Then I use pitch and roll trim buttons to adjust (with throttle). If decreasing throttle causes yaw too much (as it should), I hit auto-trim to turn it off, adjust my roll as needed, and then turn it back on. Minor tweaks during a flight.

Funny how the key to helo's is pitch/power/trim just like fixed wing aircraft.

[AeriaGloria]

10 hours ago, Hiob said:

@BIGNEWY

Considering the ongoing confusion with the Trimm/SAS/AP-Augmentation of Helicopters, especially Hind and Apache, wouldn't it make sense for ED to consult the SMEs, and give kind of an "official" documentation on

a) what exactly they do (can do, can't do)
b) how or  to what extend they are modelled in DCS (and perhaps why)
c) how they are supposed to be operated (in game/ in reality if there's a difference)
 

I guess, the information is out there already - but kind of scattered and/or unclear. Maybe that would lessen some of the "frustration" around the topic?

It is always difficult to see how big the problem really is from the wake it draws in the forum. It "feels" like a rather big issue here, but it could as well be a neglectable problem. I don't know.

There is a very technical description of the autopilot functions starting on page 46 of this document after “Automatic Control System”, it is very technical though, I will attach screenshots of the section below https://mudspikefiles.s3.dualstack.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/original/3X/7/a/7ab064a7f951b9f0325354f257f5e58c571936d6.pdf

There is a completely in depth explanation of every AP function and their use and function in DCS in my autopilot guide available here 

There is an excerpt from a 1976 manual I can translate from Russian as well, but it will be very similar to the technical description in the Cold War Museum manual 

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[Hiob]

@AeriaGloria Hey, that‘s awesome! Totally missed it. Thanks for the heads-up! 

[Soulres]

Its cause you get used to it while flying. Kinda like the huey, where if you havent flown it in awhile you get a little wobbly. Most peeps I heard dont even use the AP, but they're there if ya need them I find them handy for High Wind servers or if im flying for a long time in straight line I can flip the AP on and tick away at my phone.

[Krez]

On 9/6/2022 at 1:44 AM, Lurker said:

Have these real helicopter pilots ever flown a real Hind before?

No, but they said it would help with learning with the Ap channels off.

[Lurker]

5 hours ago, Krez said:

No, but they said it would help with learning with the Ap channels off.

I suspected as much. Had they flown the Hind, they would have known that this helicopter was not designed to fly with the AP Channels turned off. If you want to learn the basics of helicopter flying I wouldn't suggest starting with the Hind, it's heavy and very reliant on it's AP channels to be flown properly. 

[admiki]

It can be done, after all, holding FTR will neutralise SAS. But not sure why you would want that. It's a heavy bird, with a lot of inertia and you are not going to fly it that way in combat, so why bother in the first place?

[cow_art]

What is the recommended way to fly the Hind in DCS? (  FTR hold+maneuver+FTR release   or  maneuver first then click the FTR )

When in forward flight I usually press and hold FTR  during maneuvers (that way the AP does not get confused and the helicopter remains stable once I let go of the FTR).  If someone wants to get better at that, then flying the Hind with the AP channels off seems a valid way to practice.

Edited September 8, 2022 by cow_art

[AeriaGloria]

15 minutes ago, cow_art said:

What is the recommended way to fly the Hind in DCS? (  FTR hold+maneuver+FTR release   or  maneuver first then click the FTR )

When in forward flight I usually press and hold FTR  during maneuvers (that way the AP does not get confused and the helicopter remains stable once I let go of the FTR).  If someone wants to get better at that, then flying the Hind with the AP channels off seems a valid way to practice.

 

It’s a good way to practice and learn, but not how it’s supposed to be flown to be most effective. 
 

As far as holding it tapping trim button, whatever works. Holding it for a moment is better often becuase it helps with any jerks when trim disables the autopilot. 

[deloy]

I guess the more "Russian" way of flying helicopters is the tapping method, as in Blackshark and MI-8.  It is also evident in some real world cockpit videos of flying these helicopters.  I guess the same technique is also suitable on the Hind.  In the real world, helicopters with Beep trim (trim hat like the Hind) are usually flown utilizing it (except where larger cyclic input is required), as it is easy to do fine trim adjustments.  Advantage of tapping method is to feel the "force" in real world cyclic controls which help you avoid unintended abrupt movements of cyclic.

  

[jubuttib]

On 9/18/2022 at 9:32 AM, deloy said:

I guess the more "Russian" way of flying helicopters is the tapping method, as in Blackshark

Wait what? The Ka-50 in my experience really wants you to hold rather than tap (at least outside of Flight Director mode), so that the position of your cyclic isn't affected by the AP channel inputs. If you don't hold it, your cyclic might be ~20% away from what the combined output of the cyclic and autopilot was. Same for the Hind (and to an extent the Apache), where the AP channels get reset when you hold the trim. =/

With the Huey and Mi-8 it doesn't matter, because the Huey doesn't have any autopilot/stability augmentation, and the Mi-8 doesn't disable the autopilot/stability augmentation channels when you press the trim button (if you want to recenter the channels you either turn the AP channels off and back on again, or use the dials to tune them out). With those two the only reason to hold the trim button would be if you had an FFB stick and wanted to get rid of the FFB resistance during trimming.

[deloy]

Maybe is sim, yes, it does work as the forces on a spring joystick does not correspond well to real cyclic.  I remember this Blackshark issue was discussed long time ago in other forum, but real world technique was to use tapping method to avoid over controlling.  I dont have real world experience in Russian helicopters but knew lot of guys who flew Mi8/17s etc.  Tapping vs holding, with/without beep trim is mostly a personal preference in most of the cases, although flight manuals normally provide recommended way of trimming in a particular helicopter, for example in case of Apache, holding trim release while moving cyclic is preferred, however that doesnt mean you cant use techniques you are comfortable with.

I do agree that in case of DCS Blackshark, holding trim and moving does seem easier, although I always used tap (double tap!) method.

Cheers

[Lurker]

From the patch notes: 

 

• Added: Addition of mechanism 100% margin control of autopilot in SAS YAW channel

 

This might be the biggest and best change for the Hind since it came out, not sure exactly what it is, but it's time to take the Hind out of the hangar and do some testing 

[bingbean]

2 hours ago, Lurker said:

From the patch notes: 

 

• Added: Addition of mechanism 100% margin control of autopilot in SAS YAW channel

 

This might be the biggest and best change for the Hind since it came out, not sure exactly what it is, but it's time to take the Hind out of the hangar and do some testing 

Nope , it is not good change at all. At least i don't like it. The AP now influence the pedals positions and retrim it. It is really weird for me so i stop to use yaw AP chanel at all.