What makes the Apache the most difficult helicopter module to fly?

[Phantom_Mark]

Given the fact we have real Apache pilots giving feedback on this and flying it I absolutely don't have an opinion on an aircraft I never flew in RL........until then unless it is reporting an obvious bug or general feedback on how it runs on my controls or something I find it rather pointless commenting on a FM still in early access ?? maybe it's just me IDK ?

[TBone]

This is an oldish thread but my 2 cents; It is a helicopter and helicopters are hard to fly. I think some folks unfamiliar think they are getting in an airplane that happens to be VTOL. A helicopter doesn't "fly" like an airplane rather it beats the air into submission. Every input on any of the controls requires a corresponding input of the other controls to maintain stable flight. If you let go of the controls of a fixed wing aircraft, by the nature of its aerodynamics, it wants to remain stable (there are exceptions of course). A helicopter though will try to crash itself and even though the Apache has the trimming features and SAS, it is always best to assume that if you take your hands off the controls, you will die. As far as the accuracy of the Apache flight model, I'm sure there are things that guys like Casmo recognize that the rest of us that have never flown one do not, and those nuances are best left to the experts. 

 

Having flown the OH-58 A/C  IRL with no such gee whiz systems, I find the DCS Apache fairly easy to fly in comparison. However, when you are shooting and scooting, NOE, and evading, even the Apache is a pretty serious workload. If you aren't at least a little fatigued after an hour or so of combat maneuvering, you are doing something wrong. I think a lot of newcomers to helicopters just underestimate the workload to keep a helicopter stable. Learning to coordinate the controls, adjusting two when inputting on the other is key. I won't go into the technicalities of torque, gyroscopic procession, etc. Suffice it to say, helicopters don't want to fly, and they don't want to do the things you want them to do, you have to use sheer force of will and HIGHLY coordinated control inputs. If you move one control and don't adjust the other two in some fashion, the helicopter will let you know with some weird stuff.

 

One last thought; a lot of flying helicopters is being able to feel the movements. In a sim, you are using only visual cues, in most of our cases 2D, and instruments so a very important sensory input is non-existent. I find this makes a HUGE difference in real life vs. sim. Like I said before, helicoptering is hard work if you are doing it right.

[TZeer]

https://www.helisimmer.com/articles/real-pilot-impressions-ah-64d-apache-dcs

This is the viewpoint from a current Apache Instructor. He's been flying the real thing since 2005. 

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When I first tried this model, I found it almost impossible to fly.

It rolled over almost immediately shredding the rotor blades. This was the day after a flight in a real Apache, so I’m certain I didn’t forget how to fly them in the 18 hours or so between real flight and sim.

The cyclic was way too responsive, almost to the point of being sporadic. The pedals we equally over-sensitive during ground taxi, and all collective input seemed to be exaggerated as well. Nothing about this flight model resembled anything I’d ever flown, not to mention the helicopter I’d flown the day prior.

 

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I tinkered with the curves some more and ended up with the collective curve at 20%, and pedals at 15%. The cyclic is still a challenge because with the trimmer mode now set, I was able to bring the curves back to zero and the model is flyable. Even though it feels much better at a hover but is still not quite right. It’s just fine at cruise or maneuvering flight but at a hover my normal cyclic inputs that I would make in a real aircraft results in lots of over-controlling. So far, I haven’t been able to find a setting that gives me both realistic hover handing and maneuvering flight characteristics.

 

 

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This model also seems to develop rates of descent very quickly, not vortex ring state (more on that in a minute) but at a hover, this model behaves like it weighs far more than it actually does despite what the torque setting is.

Now, to give credit where credit is due, this model is the first helicopter for DCS that doesn’t slip into Vortex Ring State if you look at it wrong.

The ease with which DCS models enter into VRS is terribly unrealistic. This is compounded by the fact that now some simmers who don’t quite understand VRS or have never experienced it in real life now believe this is a realism benchmark and it's one of the things that makes DCS helicopters so good. I assure you It is not.

I’m thrilled to say the DCS Apache breaks that trend! But part of what makes this model so frustrating for me is that when I pull what I feel is a normal collective input to arrest that rate, it easily goes to a power setting that’s well into the TGT limiter setting and the rotor rpm starts to bleed off rapidly.

One of the people who had a hand in developing the flight model for the DCS Apache reached out to me to discuss it. I didn’t know he was a part of this project until then, but I’ve known this person from outside of the simulation community, and he knows a lot about the AH-64.

Over the course of two days, we discussed the flight model, and why we experienced it so differently. One of the things that stuck out the most was the hardware used to develop and tune the flight model. The equipment he used was similar to most fixed-wing setups rather than that of a helicopter, which makes sense. The vast majority of DCS users use it to fly jets. So, tuning the flight model to what they have is catering to their primary demographic.

 

 

[Hiob]

Oh, Internet Explorer has entered the chat… 

[TBone]

I guess for the vast majority of us that haven't flown an actual Apache, the experience is kind of like using GPS in a city you've never been in before. Meaning, out of a lack of experience, you find the GPS to be doing its job just fine getting you here and there but, for a person familiar with said city you would be like "where the F is this thing taking me?!?" Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

That said, I did feel like the Apache lacked nimbleness, and power, bobbing up from a hover is tricky and a bit slow, but I've adjusted my flying to compensate. Staying on top of it so I don't settle with power is a chore and I never remembered having any issues with it flying OH-58A/C so, I figured it was a characteristic of the Apache. But having read some of the info from real Apache drivers, I suppose this might not be the case.

Edited October 5, 2022 by TBone
Corrected grammar/spelling

[Cr33p3r]

I have only the DCS Mi24 and Mi8 to compare to. The Mi24 "feels" heavier and therefore a bit more stable to me taking off, hovering, slow flight, trimming, etc.. Its slow to respond to inputs and I have to think ahead and expect the response to sort of drag behind my inputs. I'm usually pretty heavy in it with ATGM's and rocket. By comparison, I'm usually pretty light in the Mi8 so its "feels" a bit more twitchy. By further comparison the AH64 (which I don't yet have that many hours in yet) really feels overpowered and much more loose especially in the wind. Tried to take off last night in extreme wind Syria and it practically rolled over on me as I got off the ground. I think I need more practice. I don't think its "harder" but its definitely different. I also prob need to tweak my deadzone/curves in my stick to make it similar to the Mi24.

Regardless, the DCS helos have really taken a hold of my interest after flight simming in fixed wing aircraft for 17 yrs.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Cr33p3r

[Raptor9]

The AH-64D was a paradox to me when I transitioned from flying smaller training helicopters. You needed to be more conscious of your inputs since the AH-64D was more responsive, even though the training helicopters were 1/5^th the gross weight of the AH-64D.

On the flip side, you quickly learned you needed to start your turn from base to final sooner in the AH-64D, otherwise the momentum of the 7 ton AH-64D would blast you right through the final approach course line. So it was quite the change going to an aircraft that was more maneuverable but simultaneously had a lot of momentum piled up behind the cockpit that you had to take into account.

[lefuneste01]

I never flew a real Hello, but I did nearly 2 campaigns in Huey and start to fly with the Mi24. I crashed a lot with them, but I was able to understand I did something bad. It is not the case with the AH64, sometime she went crazy and rolled over for a context I did not understand...

[Apache 64]

For all of you who are still struggling with the flight model of the AH-64 (or the helicopters in general), I have another tip that you can simply test.
This is about a setting in the misc options (head movement caused by G-forces).
This has nothing to do with the vibrations of individual parts in the cockpit, but simulates the back and forth swinging of the head by occurring G-forces.
Just disable this setting and test your flight again in detail.
If this setting is enabled, your vision (the pilot's head) will swing back and forth a lot and you will mostly try to compensate for these movements instead of those of the helicopter himself.
Just give it a chance.
Could be a night and day difference for many especially with TrackIR, where you move your real head yourself in addition.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Apache 64
had named the wrong menu entry

[pii]

On 10/2/2022 at 12:13 PM, TBone said:

One last thought; a lot of flying helicopters is being able to feel the movements.

This! I've often thought landing this thing might be easier if I could feel the decent speed, slowing, etc. I have to look at controls that you could basically "feel" in RL. For example when landing I have to make sure I do not enter VRS and I have to constantly watch the synboligy and can't fly it "by the seat of my pants" or I can easily crash  

Edited October 22, 2022 by pii

[Wim Bot]

Ik hoop dat er aan gewerkt wordt dat het iets beter bewerkbaar is! Ondanks vele profiels lukt het niet deze heli met Hartog Warthog normaal de lucht in te krijgen en houden.... Wel honder keer gecrahed en het leuke is er voor mij af!!! Andere helicopters lukken wel.....akelig gewoon grrrrr...!!

 

 

 

clear

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

295 / 5.000

 

Vertaalresultaten

Vertaalresultaat

I hope they are working on making it a little more editable! Despite many profiles, it is not possible to get and keep this helicopter in the air normally with Hartog Warthog.... Crashed a hundred times and the fun is gone for me!!! Other helicopters work...just awful grrrrr...!!

[sirrah]

48 minutes ago, Wim Bot said:

Ik hoop dat er aan gewerkt wordt dat het iets beter bewerkbaar is! Ondanks vele profiels lukt het niet deze heli met Hartog Warthog normaal de lucht in te krijgen en houden.... Wel honder keer gecrahed en het leuke is er voor mij af!!! Andere helicopters lukken wel.....akelig gewoon grrrrr...!!

 

 

 

clear

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

295 / 5.000

 

Vertaalresultaten

Vertaalresultaat

I hope they are working on making it a little more editable! Despite many profiles, it is not possible to get and keep this helicopter in the air normally with Hartog Warthog.... Crashed a hundred times and the fun is gone for me!!! Other helicopters work...just awful grrrrr...!!

Dude, you not being able to fly it, doesn't mean the module needs to be fixed...

Sure, some details on the flight model could maybe use some optimizations at some point (like the crabbing perhaps), but all the ranting about this helo being too difficult to fly is just nonsense. 

You do use rudder pedals I assume (or at least have the rudder axis bound to your HOTAS)? You can't fly helos in DCS without using the rudder axis.

 

The Apache is super easy to fly, and yes, I've also flown it just with my TM Warthog set (collective is nice, but not mandatory). So, I'd say either just keep practicing, or accept that you lack the time to learn. But don't come here and blame your lack of skills on ED. The Apache module is awesome and flies like a dream!

[corbu1]

I use a TM warthog as well and see no problems flying the Apache.

As @sirrah said FM is actually WIP, but it‘s in fact very nice to fly, I think. The latest OB patch brought some optimizations into the FM, especially autohover works fine now.

You do use trimming regularly?

[Floyd1212]

The flight models between all of the helos are very different, that is for sure.  And presumably, flying each of them in real life would feel different, too.  I can't tell you which FM is closest to their real counterpart, but what we have right now for the Apache is very workable, if you spend the time to practice and develop muscle memory for your control setup.

Having high quality controllers will help quite a lot, as the more precise and delicate you can be on the cyclic and pedals, the more manageable she is to fly.  Although your Warthog is a step up from many of the entry-level controllers out there, if flying the Apache (well) is truly your dream come true, investing in a base with adjustable springs and cams, and a a quality set of pedals will make flying her very rewarding.

[aaronwhite]

I definitely struggled at first with the Apache, which really threw me off. I had come from starting with the Ka-50, and then getting experienced flying around in the Mi-24 after it came out, and so with the AH-64 I expected almost a better version of the Ka-50 autopilot that I was used to, which was awesome once you wrapped your head around the autopilot and trim modes. I remember the first time I was able to come flying through a valley and just perfectly park the Ka-50 behind some tree line on a ridge...it just felt like the thing was connected to my brain.

I kind of expected the AH-64 to feel like that, and to be almost effortless to do things with, so it was definitely surprising when I struggled and crashed more than I probably even did flying the Mi-24. But as ED has worked on the FM, and as I've spent more time flying it, I'm starting to get closer to being able to almost always do what I'm thinking I want to. I think the hardest thing for me so far has been getting used to the ease that I can pick up speed, and then having to work on re-adjusting the trim, since I don't have the ability to just have the stick hold it's position like they can in real life. I've noticed the place I'm most likely to get into trouble is when I'm trying to quickly move from flying to entering into a hover behind cover.

But I feel like ED has nailed a flight model that feels right to the brain of someone who has never flown one. It feels like a high tech helicopter with a lot of power that's not exactly super heavy, at least when it's not carrying a truckload of Hellfires, but also not the lightest thing out there. It's got some weight to it, and you definitely need to get comfortable with the controls and how it will respond. ED nailed how my mind thought flying an Mi-24 would feel too, since I always felt like I was actually cruising around in this massive murder bus with the Hind.

 

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Regardless, the DCS helos have really taken a hold of my interest after flight simming in fixed wing aircraft for 17 yrs.

I've had the same thing happen to me. I grabbed the Ka-50 off of someone years ago, and got to enjoy it a lot, but then the F/A-18 and eventually the F-16 came out, and I just flew those (mostly the Hornet) a ton while ED developed them. Then there was a sale for the Mi-8, so I just thought "this looks fun enough on Youtube" and became hooked. Shortly after that was when the Mi-24 came out, and thought I initially wasn't really interested, I grabbed it and started playing around with it the day it came out, and the helicopters have pretty much been the only thing I've flown at all anymore. I jump into the F/A-18 every now and again, but there's just so much fun to be had in something that's extremely deadly, but also really vulnerable. You can't fly above the threats as easily as you can in the jets, so you've really got to focus and pick your spots. Especially so when you're flying the Hind or Hip and you don't have the same stand off capabilities that you do in the Apache, where you can just park it behind a hill and really scout the area ahead.

Edited January 31 by aaronwhite

[pii]

On 1/30/2024 at 1:58 PM, Wim Bot said:

Ik hoop dat er aan gewerkt wordt dat het iets beter bewerkbaar is! Ondanks vele profiels lukt het niet deze heli met Hartog Warthog normaal de lucht in te krijgen en houden.... Wel honder keer gecrahed en het leuke is er voor mij af!!! Andere helicopters lukken wel.....akelig gewoon grrrrr...!!

 

 

 

clear

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

295 / 5.000

 

Vertaalresultaten

Vertaalresultaat

I hope they are working on making it a little more editable! Despite many profiles, it is not possible to get and keep this helicopter in the air normally with Hartog Warthog.... Crashed a hundred times and the fun is gone for me!!! Other helicopters work...just awful grrrrr...!!

I have a warthog and was too stiff to fly the 64d. I had to get new pedals and a Virpil base to put on my warthog stick on and it made a BIG BIG difference. Went from spinning in circles to nice, smooth, and being able to land on moving ships overnight.  

You can also buy a weaker spring for the WH (called a green spring) and that may work fine also but I've never tried it, I did at one point take the spring out of the WH and it also made a world of difference but the stick didn't stay in place so I had to always hold it.. Oh yeah, you can also get an extension that will also help.

There are a few options for you that may make it fun for you, it did for me.

Sadly they cost money. The cheapest way would be to just buy the weaker spring for your WH and see how that works and then you can add the other stuff when or if you like.  

Good luck because this mod is a blast IMO.

Edited February 24 by pii

[deloy]

Guys, this module has come a long, barring some issues with hold modes (which got better, got worse and being improved), its much stable to fly. I use a simple TM 1600M with Saitek pedals. Please be aware that if you are not using fancy setup or FFB, use Central Position Trimmer mode. There is a bug in the system that cause controls to be very sluggish if you are using other trimmer modes.  

Also, Apache is supposed to be stable in hover and much more responsive in forward flight as mentioned by SMEs, which is possible now when controls are setup correctly. 

Other than hold modes (break out behavior is totally broken now, it was much better before), yaw channel response and some issues with the way CAS is modelled when FTR is pressed, its much better now in my opinion.

 

Cheers

 

[Lange_666]

16 hours ago, pii said:

I have a warthog and was too stiff to fly the 64d. I had to get new pedals and a Virpil stick to put on my warthog base and it made a BIG BIG difference.

How does putting a Virpil stick on a Warthog base make it less stiff? It's the Warthog gimbal design that makes the setup stiff.
Best way is to do it the other way around, Virpil base with the Warthog stick on it and you get a super smooth experience.

[Hiob]

5 minutes ago, Lange_666 said:

How does putting a Virpil stick on a Warthog base make it less stiff? It's the Warthog gimbal design that makes the setup stiff.
Best way is to do it the other way around, Virpil base with the Warthog stick on it and you get a super smooth experience.

I assume, he meant a Virpil grip + 10 or 20cm extension.

[Floyd1212]

Yeah, I think most would recommend replacing the WH base with a quality gimbal, and keeping the WH grip, if you like the feel.

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, Floyd1212 said:

Yeah, I think most would recommend replacing the WH base with a quality gimbal, and keeping the WH grip, if you like the feel.

Can confirm. I'm using the (heavy) metal warthog grip with a VKB base and 20 cm gooseneck-extension. Makes it very light to move (need very strong springs at the base), but is perfect for flying helos (short of having a proper "stay in place" helicopter cyclic).

[pii]

On 2/5/2024 at 5:51 AM, Lange_666 said:

How does putting a Virpil stick on a Warthog base make it less stiff? It's the Warthog gimbal design that makes the setup stiff.
Best way is to do it the other way around, Virpil base with the Warthog stick on it and you get a super smooth experience.

lol Sorry, I got that backwards. I put my WH stick on a Virpil Base. 

[Lange_666]

[JetCat]

After enjoying the Hind very much (buying it is already assured!) I also tried the Apache, and wow this thing is so different than the Hind, so extreme difficult to fly and unstable to the max, constantly wobbling either to the left or the right.... the first flights where kinda... ehm... impossible because it even crashed during most starts. Here is a video of the first start, accidentally caught by the airport security cam.

After setting the joystick curve to -30% and a few hours of intense flight training + force trim the landings now only end up with a bend landing gear. But the Apache is still very difficult to control, and the most difficult of all helicopters. The reason is it feels too light-weight, wobbling to one side or another too fast, it should have way more inertia and be a little bit more tame.

The realism is awesome, just like the Hind it has decreasing rotor rpm when setting the pitch of the rotor blades too high, just like the Hind it can go into vortex ring state, the collective and the tail rotor angle of attack when using the rudder pedals is fully animated, I love the realism!

Please do the Rah-66 Comanche next, the best looking helicopter of all times.

[lefuneste01]

36 minutes ago, JetCat said:

After enjoying the Hind very much (buying it is already assured!) I also tried the Apache, and wow this thing is so different than the Hind, so extreme difficult to fly and unstable to the max, constantly wobbling either to the left or the right....

 

 

I fly both. In the past I left the Apache because of her tendancy to get suddenly mad and bank to the left or right without any good reason. But I restarted to fly her in the last weeks and find her know quite easier to fly than the Hind. I just need to work a bit the force trim to change my heading during hover without  wobbling.
I have a Rhino DIY FFB joystick with an extension, it may help, but same for the Hind.