Disable autostart sequence in a mission

[Ducksen]

I want a checkbox to disable the ability to use autostart of aircrafts (left win + home).

The checkbox would be where the BDM, civilian traffic, labels, wake turbalance etc are today in the mission editor.

Today most people just autostart cold jets. Might aswell have them all hot. Time waiting is the only real differance between the two options.

So, I would like to disable the autostart function.

[sirrah]

1 hour ago, Ducksen said:

I want a checkbox to disable the ability to use autostart of aircrafts (left win + home).

The checkbox would be where the BDM, civilian traffic, labels, wake turbalance etc are today in the mission editor.

Today most people just autostart cold jets. Might aswell have them all hot. Time waiting is the only real differance between the two options.

So, I would like to disable the autostart function.

Although I'm not against your proposal (why would I be ), if your concern is that people using LWIN-HOME have their aircraft/helo started too fast, I know that at least for the Hornet and Apache you can startup much faster manually then by using autostart.

But hey, the more options the better

[Ducksen]

It

9 minutes ago, sirrah said:

Although I'm not against your proposal (why would I be ), if your concern is that people using LWIN-HOME have their aircraft/helo started too fast, I know that at least for the Hornet and Apache you can startup much faster manually then by using autostart.

But hey, the more options the better

It is about taking the arcade out of it. Time is not the issue here. If people can manual coldstart faster than autostart and get all systems online then GREAT!!! I am all for that. Just remove the arcade start.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Ducksen

[sirrah]

3 minutes ago, Ducksen said:

It

It is about taking the arcade out of it. Time is not the issue here. If people can manual coldstart faster than autostart and get all systems online then GREAT!!! I am all for that. Just remove the arcade start.

 

Fair enough. Good idea  

[cfrag]

24 minutes ago, Ducksen said:

It is about taking the arcade out of it.

When you start down that road as a server admin, all you are likely to achieve is making your player population smaller (if that's your goal, go right ahead), because few people enjoy being told how they should play their game on your server. When a server admin tries to micro-manage unimportant stuff like this, I usually take it as a bad sign (they'd probably also try to impose their will on you for other stuff). If you don't want people to use Auto-Start, post a message of the day along those lines: "Here we cherish realism, and think auto-starters are wussies". Let people decide what they want, and if they feel comfortable on your server. People come to your server to have fun. Why would I, the server owner give a rat's ass about how people start their models? I have better things to do. Well, at least those are the rules on my server. Heck, I even provide hot-start on most multiplayer missions (because sitting through multiple INS aligns when you only have 1-2 hours to spend is too much for many players with family). Each to their own, I guess.

 

[Mig Fulcrum]

If it is an option why not?

+1    I totally agree on more realism

[cfrag]

39 minutes ago, Mig Fulcrum said:

 I totally agree on more realism

I don't get it. You appear to mean "If it's an option" for the server admin, but not the player, correct? Because using Auto Start currently is an option for any player.

Realism should remain an individual player's choice. Why would I care how the player next to me starts their engine? Why would I, as a server admin care about how the individual player has fun starting their engine when it does not impact any other player? 

[SharpeXB]

Agree, this should be a mission/server option. I can see mission designs that intend to put limits on how fast players can respawn into the game, having lives or points etc in order to discourage reckless action. Any server I’m sure has a goal for the type of gameplay it wants whether it’s fast paced action style or something more calculating. The admins should have tools to control this and limiting the use of auto-start seems like it would accomplish that goal. 

[cfrag]

51 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I can see mission designs that intend to put limits on how fast players can respawn into the game, having lives or points etc in order to discourage reckless action

Discouraging casual recklessness does indeed make a mission much more interesting and fun for most players. I'm with you that. I've written a couple of missions that limit the number of pilot lives (i.e. you may only lose 6 pilots), and the number of airframes available (e.g. only two Hornets. Crash both, and your side no longer has access to Hornets and have to make do with whatever is left available). People wo play on my server like that aspect a lot because it places real consequences on airframe loss, and forces them to be more cautious. Enforcing cold start can also successfully penalize players for reckless airframe loss -- you are losing precious minutes starting up your engines, and players want to back in the action. 

But disabling auto-start? How is that helping? An FC3 plane (e.g. F-15C, Hog, Su-27) requires 3 clicks (electric, left, right) versus 1 (auto-start). So disproportionally penalize a Bug, Apache or C-Hog driver? For what benefit - other than seeing your players leaving and your reputation tank?

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, cfrag said:

But disabling auto-start? How is that helping?

Like you just said above: “Enforcing cold start can also successfully penalize players for reckless airframe loss -- you are losing precious minutes starting up your engines, and players want to back in the action.”

 

1 hour ago, cfrag said:

An FC3 plane (e.g. F-15C, Hog, Su-27) requires 3 clicks

These are eventually going away from DCS into MAC from what I understand. 

[cfrag]

23 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Like you just said above

Apologies, that was not what I meant to say. The loss of time happens the same with or without auto start, there is no need to disable that. Matter of fact, I can hand-start the Huey quicker than the auto-start proc. Disabling auto-start brings nothing to the table except alienating people for giving off an elitist “you may only play if you know the startup-procedure” vibe. 

[SharpeXB]

8 minutes ago, cfrag said:

The loss of time happens the same with or without auto start, there is no need to disable that.

But it’s still a task you need to perform. But yeah I can’t start the aircraft better and faster than auto-start. So the way I see it, auto-start is an unnecessary feature. 

8 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Disabling auto-start brings nothing to the table except alienating people for giving off an elitist “you may only play if you know the startup-procedure” vibe. 

Well considering that the type of player who uses auto-start is likely the same sort who will use the taxiways for takeoff, good riddance. I’m totally ok with elitist server settings. 

Edited August 28, 2022 by SharpeXB

[Dangerzone]

I too don't get the drive in wanting to change how someone else does something when it doesn't affect anyone else - especially when no one would even know. Been concerned about removing an option for someone else - that doesn't affect me? It seems silly to me. So in saying that - it would be a bit hypocritical of me to turn around and say others shouldn't have this feature as an option in the ME coz I don't think they should be able to disable Autostart on their servers in the mission editor coz I'd be doing the same - after all it's their server. 

As for auto-starters being the taxi-takeoffers, I strongly doubt you can link one to the other and say because they auto-start they're going to be troublemakers. If people are concerned that much about time - they're probably going to have their own auto-start macro that's the fastest startup anyway. JVoy, Streamdeck, voiceattack, or countless other options available... considering DCS's auto-start is counter-productive to getting in the air quick for air-quake I question that logic, but each to their own. If that's what they want to implement and believe it will make a difference - good luck to them.  My suggestion would be to use a script already available for runway policing that would kick these people. It's already available and far better than a guess of 'auto-starters must be taxi-takeoffers' assumption.

My only real concern with this request is return on investment. To implement this takes Dev's time & resources. For the few server admin's that may find this satisfying to implement and enjoy micro-manage their population to this level - time has to be taken away from other dev tasks to develop this feature that might benefit a larger group of the DCS community. (Especially since disabling auto-start won't stop people from autostarting other ways anyway).

So while I couldn't care less if someone can have this option on their own server - I do question the merits of using development resources that would otherwise be utilised in features that would suit the wider community to something that doesn't really seem to achieve anything significant. And for that reason only I'd prefer not to see it implemented. 

As a suggestion for those who really want to have this feature now and are willing to implement a workaround - I wonder if it's possible to implement it via scripting. For say the hornet as an example - there may be an event that you can check to see if the fuel probe is extended while on the ground. Have the same type of checks for other aircraft type. If so - de-spawn the client with a message "Autostart is not welcome here" or whatever. If there are other events that other planes do that are only unique to the auto-start and most likely not used otherwise.  

Edited August 29, 2022 by Dangerzone

[SharpeXB]

4 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

I too don't get the drive in wanting to change how someone else does something when it doesn't affect anyone else

The style of gameplay and the type of player on the server affects everyone. If this setting was useful for encouraging a certain intended play style it would be a good idea. 

[cfrag]

8 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

I wonder if it's possible to implement it via scripting. For say the hornet as an example - there may be an event that you can check to see if the fuel probe is extended while on the ground.

Interesting thought experiment, but such a script would not be able to tell the difference if the fuel probe was extended because the player pressed the switch, or because the auto-start script extended it - the auto-start script also generates all the required button events with the required pauses in-between. Same goes for a Voice-Attack script or other macro (just for the heck of it, I programmed a start-up macro for the Huey. Simple). And there is macro software that can record your keypresses in real-time, and then re-play them on-demand. So you'll only ever need to teach it the procedure once. Since these inputs come from the input buffer, there's no way to tell them apart from the real thing.

If there's one thing that is for sure, it's that the moment that auto-start is suppressed in missions, non-integrity-breaking auto-start-scripts become available for download roughly a minute later. If Voice Attack and VAICOM can do it today, so can many others tomorrow at latest. "A lost cause, this one is" 

[Dangerzone]

14 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The style of gameplay and the type of player on the server affects everyone. If this setting was useful for encouraging a certain intended play style it would be a good idea. 

Thanks SharpeXB. I understand that was your reasoning  - and could concede if it would encourage a certain play style then it could be beneficial - but as mentioned with the rest of my post I have significant doubts on how realistically effective that would likely to be. (Return on investment, effectiveness, and alternatives to the auto-startup that already exist). Sorry if I didn't make that clearer in my original reply. 

10 hours ago, cfrag said:

Interesting thought experiment, but such a script would not be able to tell the difference if the fuel probe was extended because the player pressed the switch, or because the auto-start script extended it - the auto-start script also generates all the required button events with the required pauses in-between. Same goes for a Voice-Attack script or other macro (just for the heck of it, I programmed a start-up macro for the Huey. Simple). And there is macro software that can record your keypresses in real-time, and then re-play them on-demand. So you'll only ever need to teach it the procedure once. Since these inputs come from the input buffer, there's no way to tell them apart from the real thing.

If there's one thing that is for sure, it's that the moment that auto-start is suppressed in missions, non-integrity-breaking auto-start-scripts become available for download roughly a minute later. If Voice Attack and VAICOM can do it today, so can many others tomorrow at latest. "A lost cause, this one is" 

Oh - I agree. The script won't be able to tell the difference  and I'm convinced it's a lost cause too. Please don't misunderstand me - I whole heartedly agree with you. I don't see it being significantly effective at all in discouraging people in the way that is being promoted here with the ample other options for auto-start. Most people I know who use auto-start are not the types of negative people being referred to here, and the people I know who are more inline with air-quakers tend to have custom macro's to get them going faster that bypass this already. 

However even so - I've learned that sometimes it's easier to convince people by letting them implement what they want for themselves and see the end results instead of trying to continue to convince them.

So my suggestion on the script is for those who, regardless of these things we've raised, are still convinced this is the better way of encouraging only the types of players they are chasing and are passionate about implementing it... to have a workable alternative now. Just because I don't agree with their logic doesn't mean I can't throw out an idea that may be helpful to them to implement what they want (even if I consider it illogical).

Maybe I've got the wrong approach in encouraging a bad idea? I don't know - for me the benefits of this are that it gives a possible alternative option for people to implement without ED wasting resources on this, and then they can see for themselves how effective/ineffective this is. Additionally if it makes them feel better about who's on the server - (even if it's a placebo) - well - that's cool too. 

The main thought is this way, they get the feature they want, and my concerns about ED wasting resources on this are also met. A win win. 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Dangerzone

[Ducksen]

On 8/28/2022 at 2:32 PM, cfrag said:

When you start down that road as a server admin, all you are likely to achieve is making your player population smaller (if that's your goal, go right ahead), because few people enjoy being told how they should play their game on your server. When a server admin tries to micro-manage unimportant stuff like this, I usually take it as a bad sign (they'd probably also try to impose their will on you for other stuff). If you don't want people to use Auto-Start, post a message of the day along those lines: "Here we cherish realism, and think auto-starters are wussies". Let people decide what they want, and if they feel comfortable on your server. People come to your server to have fun. Why would I, the server owner give a rat's ass about how people start their models? I have better things to do. Well, at least those are the rules on my server. Heck, I even provide hot-start on most multiplayer missions (because sitting through multiple INS aligns when you only have 1-2 hours to spend is too much for many players with family). Each to their own, I guess.

 

Well, I am assuming in this response you are talking about those 24hour a day servers that are always up and running or close to that concept.
I am talking about running missions with briefs at the start and flight groups have tasks set. Those tasks are part of a larger set of tasks carried out by other flight groups. There are a great deal of people that enjoy that kind of simulation. Those groups are not visible due to the squadron nature of the community.

I guess there will always be a group that loves what I call AirQuake, or AirFragger, where starting up, flying, exploding, starting up again is the nature of the evening. In those cases it is crystal clear to me that hot starts is the best way to go.
And there are a great deal of people that love bespoke missions with a brief and having times pre-briefed on when to go off chocks to taxi. Where your flight group has a clear goal and you know what your team mates are doing and what all of you are attempting to achieve these next two hours. Then server goes down until next weeks sortie. For those/us having the ability to choose as mission creators to disable autostart would be nice.
REMEMBER - this is an option for the mission creator, not that all will do it that way. Nice to have the option.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Ducksen

[cfrag]

2 minutes ago, Ducksen said:

And there are a great deal of people that love bespoke missions with a brief and having times pre-briefed on when to go off chocks to taxi.

Without a doubt, and those are usually the best experiences to be had. Thing is, with those servers you have a closed audience and you know each pilot, perhaps even personally. You don't need to enforce things like hand-starting, because it's a matter of honor. Something you talk about in the pre-brief. And, truth be told, every pilot probably goes through one start-up sequence during the entire mission. If you really have to enforce something silly as auto-start with such a group, there might be something wrong with your group. And even if someone cheated themselves out of a superior experience by auto-starting - why would the mission designer care?

  

[DishDoggie]

Good Points on both sides. If I was part of a Group flying missions and that was a issue I would go with the flow and not make waves. Unless I was told my Plane Livery had to be a  Aname Livery then I might leave the Group. We all have a limit.

[Elf1606688794]

On 8/28/2022 at 4:25 AM, Ducksen said:

I want a checkbox to disable the ability to use autostart of aircrafts (left win + home).

The checkbox would be where the BDM, civilian traffic, labels, wake turbalance etc are today in the mission editor.

Today most people just autostart cold jets. Might aswell have them all hot. Time waiting is the only real differance between the two options.

So, I would like to disable the autostart function.

I'm relatively new to DCS and I autostart all but the F-14 and I can watch a YouTube video of a real Tomcat being started on the deck of a carrier and keep up. So while I can learn the startup and shutdown procedures I'd rather use my brains memory bandwith to learn how to fly and fight more aircraft.

That said, I fully support your request as it will attract players to your server that enjoy that play style. I don't think it would be all that hard or time consuming to implement either. 

While you're waiting for an official update maybe someone could write a script for you that will make your wish become reality. Good luck.

[Mars Exulte]

 

On 8/28/2022 at 7:32 AM, cfrag said:

When a server admin tries to micro-manage unimportant stuff like this, I usually take it as a bad sign

  Have played many servers. Dbag admins are indeed a problem, and this is usually a flashing red siren with attached PSA speakers, as far as red flags go.

 

On 8/28/2022 at 2:35 PM, cfrag said:

The loss of time happens the same with or without auto start, there is no need to disable that.

  Indeed. It doesn't affect the actual end result, if anything, I can usually manually start probably 50% faster than the autostart. Most people doing this probably use the interlude to take a piss and get a coffee.

 

  It's presence or absence is irrelevant to me, but as always, I'm amused how many people obsess over stuff like this and how other people may be ''cheating'' in some ''only in your own head'' world, likely getting throbbing erections while fantasising about being like ''real pilotsh'' @@ It's also 100% pointless, as I can create a macro to do literally the same thing (and indeed, have done exactly that in other games) in 5-10 minutes using any of the software that typically comes with a stick... and no, there's absolutely no way to prevent it. Ultimately, this serves no purpose other than stroking a power tripping admin's e-peen and making doofus gamers feel ''hardcoar''. It's just........ the height of pointless.

[SharpeXB]

Is is funny to see the play style difference on servers with hot started aircraft vs the cold start. It’s like night and day. Not that’s it’s bad or good and reckless shoot ‘em up action can be fun. Sure, there’s not much point in this game setting because it could just be bypassed with a script or macro. 

10 hours ago, Elf1606688794 said:

I autostart all but the F-14 and I can watch a YouTube video of a real Tomcat being started on the deck of a carrier and keep up.

There are training videos galore on YouTube covering every aspect of these modules especially the start procedures.

[Sandman1330]

On 8/28/2022 at 1:41 PM, SharpeXB said:

Well considering that the type of player who uses auto-start is likely the same sort who will use the taxiways for takeoff, good riddance. I’m totally ok with elitist server settings. 

 

There's also the real life pilots who realize the ability to cold start an aircraft in a game doesn't make you a DCS god.

I fly milsim. I also hot / auto start all my aircraft because I cold start them for a living and can't be bothered to make my leisure time feel like my work time.

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, Sandman1330 said:

There's also the real life pilots who realize the ability to cold start an aircraft in a game doesn't make you a DCS god.

I fly milsim. I also hot / auto start all my aircraft because I cold start them for a living and can't be bothered to make my leisure time feel like my work time.

I get that. I’m just pointing out the difference this makes in the gameplay style online. On the hot start server the mission designer had to put up concrete barriers on the taxiways to keep people from using them as runways. And every time I’m on there I see planes exploding from trying to do that

[Elf1606688794]

29 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I get that. I’m just pointing out the difference this makes in the gameplay style online. On the hot start server the mission designer had to put up concrete barriers on the taxiways to keep people from using them as runways. And every time I’m on there I see planes exploding from trying to do that

I guess I won't tell you the things I've done in other flight sims then.