DCS: F-14 Development Update - AIM-54 Phoenix Improvements & Overhaul - Guided Discussion

[TomcatFan1976]

9 hours ago, BubiHUN said:

nah man there is a really good tactic to launch them and shoot down every AI with a very good hit rate.
1.Get up to at least 30k,

2.go to TWS AUTO, when your opponents are at 90-80 miles from you, engage AB go above 1 Mach,

3.launch at 60 miles for the first launch, and pull up your jet to about 25 degress than launch. 
4.Then (before launching DCS) download my Walkman mod, press LShift+M and start banging your head on the way back to the carrier.
If you worry about the fuel, learn how to AAR, just fully sweep the wings back before plugging in the thing into the Drogue.

F-14 is still capable, and keep that in mind the AI now are almost cheating when deafeting missiles. You know the meme about the missiles, "The missile know where it is and know where it isn't."? 
Same goes for the AI. 
F-14 is still very good, just need to do a little more management bro. 

EDIT:
If you are having enemies at about 1-15 miles from you, just go for PAL mode, lift the ACM cover and launch your real fast huge missile at them in pitbull mode and laugh at them.
Also don't forget to use the CMk47. Even players really like to hold them with their foreheads.

5. Thank me later
 

 

I do all these things and nothing. most don't even go pitbull. But thank you for giving an answer and help instead of being rude and think everyone is dumb but you. Nice to know there's at least one person on here that doesn't have an over inflated ego and actually offers help.

2 hours ago, Dannyvandelft said:

Well, it IS you. Just like it was me. I had the same issues, and then I started to practice specifically on how I launch them. I followed my missiles in F6 view, and looked at what happened to the ones that missed. I started launching in much better parameters, like high altitude and speed, 10-15 degree nose up, etc. And the hit ratio went well up. And the ones that missed, missed barely because the enemy notched them for instance. You're never going to get 100% but my hit ratio went from 1 or none out of 4, to 3 out of 4 regularly, and occasionally 4 out of 4.

Coincidentally this helps your Sparrow game too.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

I do all those things you mentioned and lucky if i get 1 out 6 to hit anything or even go pitbull. Like i said in my last reply, it's to have people that actually help instead of looking down on someone for ranting...thanks for that

[BubiHUN]

1 hour ago, TomcatFan1976 said:

I do all these things and nothing. most don't even go pitbull. But thank you for giving an answer and help instead of being rude and think everyone is dumb but you. Nice to know there's at least one person on here that doesn't have an over inflated ego and actually offers help.

I do all those things you mentioned and lucky if i get 1 out 6 to hit anything or even go pitbull. Like i said in my last reply, it's to have people that actually help instead of looking down on someone for ranting...thanks for that

try disabling the option in the special tab of the F-14 "go WVR automatically" or something like that. Jester is so broken when you have that option checked

[Karon]

2 hours ago, TomcatFan1976 said:

I do all these things and nothing. most don't even go pitbull. But thank you for giving an answer and help instead of being rude and think everyone is dumb but you. Nice to know there's at least one person on here that doesn't have an over inflated ego and actually offers help.

I do all those things you mentioned and lucky if i get 1 out 6 to hit anything or even go pitbull. Like i said in my last reply, it's to have people that actually help instead of looking down on someone for ranting...thanks for that

If most do not go pitbull, there is something fundamentally wrong with the setup (e.g. your geometry, your modus operandi). The most common issue is the generation of an extrapolated track, which is more miss than hit. When this happens, the missile is not trashed, but the odds of being successful at timeout are often low. Preventing this is rather easy, go easy on the crank and keep an eye on the DDD for MLC and ZD zones.
Your geometry should also take into account the situation post launch. Let's say you have a target on the nose at launch, TA 30R, direction (DoP) left to right, Cut 45; so basically drifting right (making numbers up, it may not be precise). In this situation, on a long-range shot, or if you crank L, you will make it notch you. This is why your RIO (or you) should keep an eye on the DDD, thus avoiding the generation of an extrapolated track and all the blablabla mentioned above.

Feel free to share your Tacview track with us.

Post scriptum: You may have missed this:

 

[Dannyvandelft]

I do all those things you mentioned and lucky if i get 1 out 6 to hit anything or even go pitbull. Like i said in my last reply, it's to have people that actually help instead of looking down on someone for ranting...thanks for that

So you read the first 4 words, and that's all you took from that? I literally went on to say how I made the same mistakes, and then how to fix those mistakes.



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

try disabling the option in the special tab of the F-14 "go WVR automatically" or something like that. Jester is so broken when you have that option checked

That's for STT locks. And that was for Sparrows.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[BubiHUN]

1 hour ago, Dannyvandelft said:

That's for STT locks. And that was for Sparrows.

and still when using the BVR modes jester just keep changing the modes

[draconus]

5 hours ago, BubiHUN said:

and still when using the BVR modes jester just keep changing the modes

Can you be more specific?

http://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/general.html#an-awg-9-radar

[Harlikwin]

On 2/12/2023 at 5:18 PM, Harlikwin said:

Spo-10 only worked from 1-8ghz... pretty sure both the AWG9 and Phoenix were higher. 

Also is the 52nm or whatever it is TWS launch limitation modeled now? 

 

 

On 2/16/2023 at 7:22 PM, turkeydriver said:

It should be more like 78nm for TWS

Its not 78nm, its 52nm per the non redacted AWG-9 documents. A limitation from having to update the missiles in TWS every 2sec.

 

At any rate I was wrong about the SPO-10, upon further digging it works just fine in the AWG-9 and Phoenix freq bands. Most likely the issues was that the iraqis didn't get any warning when launched on in TWS, just blip every 2secs as they got scanned over.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Harlikwin

[Harlikwin]

On 2/25/2023 at 11:29 PM, Biggus said:

So you're hitting with 17% of your missiles and you seem to be under the impression that this is as good as it gets in DCS right now, but at the same time you don't seem receptive to advice on how to improve your odds from people who are enjoying vastly greater success.  Because as far as you're concerned, you know what you're doing.

So much of this forty one page thread is people who supposedly knew what they were doing finding out that they, in fact, did not know what they were doing after all.

Yup. In the immortal words of the online community, sounds like a skill issue...

And really the A models while usable against fighters really weren't all that good vs fighters. If you actually go look at counter claims from the iraq war and CIA estimates, the Iranians had maybe a 50% hit percentage with em. And IIRC lost like 20 cats to iraq.

 

[Harlikwin]

20 hours ago, Dannyvandelft said:

So you read the first 4 words, and that's all you took from that? I literally went on to say how I made the same mistakes, and then how to fix those mistakes.



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

That's for STT locks. And that was for Sparrows.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

TBH versus actual aware fighters (i.e. online MP), you pretty much need to STT em. Once in a while you'll catch someone sleeping, but in general most MP players know how to trash tomcat TWS.

[Comstedt86]

On 2/27/2023 at 1:57 AM, BubiHUN said:

and still when using the BVR modes jester just keep changing the modes

Tried GS server yesterday evening briefly. No issues with Jester.

7 kille (5 with the 54 all in TWS mode) and died once to a sneakt Gazelle with Mistrals.

[turkeydriver]

On 2/27/2023 at 1:57 PM, Harlikwin said:

Yup. In the immortal words of the online community, sounds like a skill issue...

And really the A models while usable against fighters really weren't all that good vs fighters. If you actually go look at counter claims from the iraq war and CIA estimates, the Iranians had maybe a 50% hit percentage with em. And IIRC lost like 20 cats to iraq.

 

They didn’t lose 20 cats lol.  The A was fine in the beginning but they adapted pretty quickly and as long as they knew tomcats were inbound they could counter the missile.  A 50 percent war time hit percentage is excellent, even today.  That’s a very effective weapon.  Only IR weapons up close can hope for better success without flares coming into play.

Edited March 2, 2023 by turkeydriver

[Harlikwin]

3 hours ago, turkeydriver said:

They didn’t lose 20 cats lol.  The A was fine in the beginning but they adapted pretty quickly and as long as they new tomcats were inbound they could counter the missile.  A 50 percent war time hit percentage is excellent, even today.  That’s a very effective weapon.  Only IR weapons up close can hope for better success without flares comping into play.

The CIA seemed to think so. Even in coopers book there are several mentions of badly damaged cats making it back to base. I'm gonna bet most of those never flew again, so I'd say thats a write off.

As for the Phx, yeah 50% is good enough. 

[Spurts]

As I recall once the F-1 showed up with advanced French RWR/ECM the Cat was no longer invulnerable and they actually lost a few before they adjusted tactics.

[TomcatFan1976]

On 2/26/2023 at 6:55 PM, Dannyvandelft said:

So you read the first 4 words, and that's all you took from that? I literally went on to say how I made the same mistakes, and then how to fix those mistakes.



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

That's for STT locks. And that was for Sparrows.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

This is what i replied. I was thanking you for the help.....

 

 

On 2/26/2023 at 12:39 PM, Dannyvandelft said:

Well, it IS you. Just like it was me. I had the same issues, and then I started to practice specifically on how I launch them. I followed my missiles in F6 view, and looked at what happened to the ones that missed. I started launching in much better parameters, like high altitude and speed, 10-15 degree nose up, etc. And the hit ratio went well up. And the ones that missed, missed barely because the enemy notched them for instance. You're never going to get 100% but my hit ratio went from 1 or none out of 4, to 3 out of 4 regularly, and occasionally 4 out of 4.

Coincidentally this helps your Sparrow game too.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

Expand  

I do all those things you mentioned and lucky if i get 1 out 6 to hit anything or even go pitbull. Like i said in my last reply, it's nice to have people that actually help instead of looking down on someone for ranting...thanks for that

[Karon]

14 hours ago, TomcatFan1976 said:

I do all those things you mentioned and lucky if i get 1 out 6 to hit anything or even go pitbull. Like i said in my last reply, it's nice to have people that actually help instead of looking down on someone for ranting...thanks for that

... . -. -.. / - .- -.-. ...- .. . .-- / - .-. .- -.-. -.- ... .-.-.-

(↑ Send TacView tracks.)

 

Yep, I'm using Morse code now, perhaps we finally get some tracks to discuss

[Bananabrai]

On 9/28/2022 at 5:25 PM, Strider21 said:

whereas in DCS every AI fighter will have a perfect knowledge of an inbound missile and will evade into a perfect notch or defense within a second of the missile going active

A very annoying and frustrating fact. Wonder if this is getting changed at some point by ED.
At least I think I remember they said they work on the AI.

[kievbsm]

2 minutes ago, Bananabrai said:

At least I think I remember they said they work on the AI.

 it is how it works AFTER reworking

[Bananabrai]

28 minutes ago, kievbsm said:

 it is how it works AFTER reworking

Awesome^^

[draconus]

48 minutes ago, Bananabrai said:

A very annoying and frustrating fact. Wonder if this is getting changed at some point by ED.

You can never please everyone. They were sitting ducks before eating every missile you throw at them. Now they're all-knowing aces perfectly evading every missile but you'll still find users that say AI is too easy and the others that say they're too hard. This is current AI state but ED never said it's perfect and that work has stopped.

[Tweety777]

2 hours ago, draconus said:

You can never please everyone. They were sitting ducks before eating every missile you throw at them. Now they're all-knowing aces perfectly evading every missile but you'll still find users that say AI is too easy and the others that say they're too hard. This is current AI state but ED never said it's perfect and that work has stopped.

I did find a server where different sets of AI planes have different skill levels. Some can easily be taken out by a single missile while others keep evading and shoot me out of the sky in a dogfight (hard to kill an enemy that you can't see, improving on that at the moment) Seems like there already is a solution to this problem, though not everyone might be fully aware of this causing this to not be used more often in multiplayer servers.

[Harlikwin]

On 3/1/2023 at 6:43 PM, Spurts said:

As I recall once the F-1 showed up with advanced French RWR/ECM the Cat was no longer invulnerable and they actually lost a few before they adjusted tactics.

IIRC they also lost F14's to both the mig23MLA's and later on one to a 29. As well as F1's. 

 

[turkeydriver]

On 3/6/2023 at 2:51 PM, Harlikwin said:

IIRC they also lost F14's to both the mig23MLA's and later on one to a 29. As well as F1's. 

 

Where are you recalling from?  Not Tom Coopers book?  When did the -29 incident occur?

[Harlikwin]

1 hour ago, turkeydriver said:

Where are you recalling from?  Not Tom Coopers book?  When did the -29 incident occur?

I think that was an online article.

 

[PB0_corse66]

Ok, I'm trully fed up of the behavior of those phoenix.. 

Track is here :

https://we.tl/t-Wt0IDQ7CV9

 

3 run yesterday acting as a RIO of PB0_Grizzlie.... we trained 3 times against 2 x Mig 23. 

Each time we tried this :

Run 1 : AIM 54 C Mk 60 . Shoots : 46 min of the track

Run 2: AIM 54 C Mk 47. Shoots : 1h 19

Run 3 : AIM 54 A Mk 60. Shoots: 1h50

(Spoiler : no change whatsoever)

 

Every time we tried a head on pass, and launched 2 phoenix in TWS mode and guiding them until they were pitbull then breaking off.. 

Launch was UNDER 30 NM with a head on pass on bloody Mig 23 head on.. most of the time because of the loft the missiles do not have enough energy to hit anything.. (specially run 2 and 3), first run was better (despite loosing tracking of one phoenix)

Why are they bloody lofting to angel 55 for a shoot head on under 30 NM?

 

Then we tried other stuff (dogfight, launching phoenix in STT or active mode.. etc.) so please concentrate on the initial shoots of the 3 fights and tell me what I'm doing wrong

Edited March 15, 2023 by PB0_corse66

[Lurker]

@PB0_corse66 currently at work and I don't have time to look at the track, just a quick question what was your initial altitude at time of launch, and what was the approximate altitude of the bandit? Also what was the closing speed? 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Lurker