w.i.p Flight Model (FM) since [21.09.2022] DCS 2.7.18.30348 Open Beta

[Floyd1212]

There are two hold modes in the Apache to help you maintain a hover.  The Attitude Hold does a pretty good job of maintaining your heading, once you have trimmed the aircraft down to less than 3 knots of ground speed.  Get into your hover manually, trim the aircraft, and then apply the ATT Hold. 

Altitude hold is a problem, at the moment, and can't be trusted.  Make adjustments to your collective manually to maintain your desired altitude, and check back often to make sure you aren't settling with power, or climbing too high above your cover.  You can put your head down for a bit to manage TSD points, or check the F10 map, but it isn't rock solid like it used to be with ALT Hold a couple patches ago.

Or you can set the Apache aside, and check back later for improvements.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Floyd1212

[Christopher Scott]

I really don't like this flight model, many hours spent getting it right with the old one now it's almost like starting over!

If it really is the correct one I guess I will have to suck it up but I have my doubts.

Also the trim ball is off now centre when the helicopter is stationary on the ground.

Surely that can't be right? isn't it meant to show motion in that direction?
 

[Swift.]

7 minutes ago, Christopher Scott said:

I really don't like this flight model, many hours spent getting it right with the old one now it's almost like starting over!

If it really is the correct one I guess I will have to suck it up but I have my doubts.

Also the trim ball is off now centre when the helicopter is stationary on the ground.

Surely that can't be right? isn't it meant to show motion in that direction?
 

Trim ball whilst in a hover or on the ground will show the tilt angle of the helicopter. So if you have the pedals in the centre you will be inputting a slight amount of nose left tail right. Which will cause a slight rolling moment about the tail rotor. I suspect this is what you are seeing. Unless its something else like having the cyclic over to one side.

[Floyd1212]

12 minutes ago, Christopher Scott said:

I really don't like this flight model, many hours spent getting it right with the old one now it's almost like starting over!

"Starting over" seems like a bit of an exaggeration, no?  I suppose it depends on how much time you are able to spend in the seat, but I imagine most will be able to adapt to the incremental changes in the flight characteristics within a couple hours.

It's not like they have changed the direction of rotation on the main rotor or something.

[Bagpipe]

On 10/9/2022 at 6:15 PM, Floyd1212 said:

There are two hold modes in the Apache to help you maintain a hover.  The Attitude Hold does a pretty good job of maintaining your heading, once you have trimmed the aircraft down to less than 3 knots of ground speed.  Get into your hover manually, trim the aircraft, and then apply the ATT Hold. 

Altitude hold is a problem, at the moment, and can't be trusted.  Make adjustments to your collective manually to maintain your desired altitude, and check back often to make sure you aren't settling with power, or climbing too high above your cover.  You can put your head down for a bit to manage TSD points, or check the F10 map, but it isn't rock solid like it used to be with ALT Hold a couple patches ago.

Or you can set the Apache aside, and check back later for improvements.

 

Yeah I feel that it may be linked to the ALT mode as it bobs up and down by 100ft+ and it may be causing an unexpected settle with power reaction. I will give it a bit of time to mature, all is not lost.

[FalcoGer]

On 10/4/2022 at 2:01 PM, palerider37 said:

As an US Army AH-64 tech for over 25 years, I was lucky enough to get opportunities to fly the AH-64A/D/E simulator from time to time. For a full year in 2012, I was lucky enough to work daily with the simulator team in Bagram Afghanistan. That year I logged well over 1000 hours flying the AH-64D in every “digital” environment possible. Days that pilots were present, it was a hands-on masterclass in operating the AH-64D, and when they weren't, it was my own personal “XBOX”... With that, I humbly submit to you my judgment for discussion.

 

I am however unable to provide tangible evidence of my review.  I'm not a test pilot and can't explain inertia and turn rate in a manner that would assist others.  Not to mention my experience in the simulator was 10 years ago and now I only get to fly it 1-2 times a year.

 

Pilotos and Apache pilots of DCS, what say you?

 

(video for context)

(83) AH-64 Apache Helicopter Simulator - YouTube

I don't get this post at all. What are you saying? "I did a cool thing in my life, here is how my experience compares to DCS, but it's not hard data: [insert cricket noises], I hope I could help with my insights"

What is it now? Is DCS accurate? If not how should it change? Sadly I am not privileged to play with a real Apache or a simulator, so I wouldn't know the first thing about it first hand. But this just seems like: "I know, but not gonna tell you. By the way I'm cool."

On 10/4/2022 at 2:24 PM, BIGNEWY said:

Thank you for the feedback

It would be nice if there was any feedback to be thankful for? I know English isn't my first language but can someone enlighten me what I'm missing here? Maybe there really is some great, actual information that is relevant for the flight model in DCS in that post and I can't see it?

I watched the promo video and that didn't help either.

Edited October 14, 2022 by FalcoGer

[cow_art]

9 hours ago, FalcoGer said:

I don't get this post at all. What are you saying? "I did a cool thing in my life, here is how my experience compares to DCS, but it's not hard data: [insert cricket noises], I hope I could help with my insights"

What is it now? Is DCS accurate? If not how should it change? Sadly I am not privileged to play with a real Apache or a simulator, so I wouldn't know the first thing about it first hand. But this just seems like: "I know, but not gonna tell you. By the way I'm cool."

It would be nice if there was any feedback to be thankful for? I know English isn't my first language but can someone enlighten me what I'm missing here? Maybe there really is some great, actual information that is relevant for the flight model in DCS in that post and I can't see it?

I watched the promo video and that didn't help either.

 

Threads got merged. The feedback was in the thread title. I guess it's lost now, but if I remember correctly OP found the flight model to be not bad (B+ rating or so if memory serves?).

[pii]

On 9/30/2022 at 10:15 AM, Dominator said:

Also I do not have rudder pedals.

And that is probably your problem. I had to buy a new stick to get this thing to fly right, now its (kind of) a Piece of cake to fly. I couldn't imigine even trying with out at least some cheap rudder pedals.

On 10/11/2022 at 1:41 PM, Christopher Scott said:

If it really is the correct one

It's a WIP and will probably change many times in the coming weeks before they are done.

[pii]

On 10/11/2022 at 1:41 PM, Christopher Scott said:

I really don't like this flight model

Well that's good since it isn't final yet.  So just start over  or wait until it is final (in two years) <-I made that up, might only be a year  

This is what Early Access means, Its not done, or even close, and will change manytimes before it is in the Stable Release section of DCS

Happy Hovering 

[Raptor9]

I recommend re-evaluating any existing saturations or curves that people are using, to include their trim options in the special tab. As the behavior the flight model has evolved since release, any saturations/curves may be outdated given any changes.

For my own set up, I have a Saitek X52 stick/throttle and Saitek rudder pedals, both of which are spring-centered. I use a 90% Saturation Y for Pitch, Roll and Yaw to make up for the fact my controls don't have the full movement length of the real aircraft's cyclic and pedals, and Instant Trim for both the Cyclic and the Pedals in the special tab.

Also, I really recommend that the force trim should be utilized when moving the controls. It's a critical component of the flight controls.

[cow_art]

1 minute ago, Raptor9 said:

Also, I really recommend that the force trim should be utilized when moving the controls. It's a critical component of the flight controls.

Do you mean holding down FTR while moving the cyclic? I understand that's how the Apache is meant to be flown in real life. But last time I tried this in DCS, holding FTR completely disabled the SAS, which makes the helicopter really hard to handle. I suspect that's not how it should work and the Apache should go into "damping mode" when FTR is held down (similar to the Ka-50)?

[Raptor9]

35 minutes ago, cow_art said:

Do you mean holding down FTR while moving the cyclic? 

Yes.

It doesn't fully deactivate the SCAS, but it modifies the logic of it. The aircraft stability is virtually identical with the FTR held down versus not, the main difference is that you have additional "atmospheric upset damping" when it isn't pressed. The green SAS indicators on the Control Indicator aren't 100% gospel of the flight computer's logic.

With the same control settings applied to the Huey, I don't find the Huey any easier to fly than the AH-64. It feels different and it needs to be flown differently because of how it responds to control inputs, and it normally takes me a few minutes to get myself out of my AH-64 flying mindset and into the UH-1's, but both helicopters require constant control adjustments to keep the aircraft flying how you want it to. Helicopters fly using a delicate balance of various opposing forces, and these forces are constantly changing magnitude. This requires inputs to maintain a balance against all these forces.

The Ka-50's dampers behave slightly differently than the AH-64D's, and the Ka-50 is also several tons heavier. Different helicopters require different control inputs and have their own "feel". I'm not saying "git gud", but when it comes down to it, the AH-64D is actually easy to handle if you avoid trying to fly it like a UH-1 or a Ka-50. There are some similarities between them, but at the end of the day they are different helicopters.

It's the same thing as the F-16 vs the F/A-18. They have similarities, but both fly different and were designed to dogfight differently.

[cow_art]

5 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

Yes.

It doesn't fully deactivate the SCAS, but it modifies the logic of it. The aircraft stability is virtually identical with the FTR held down versus not, the main difference is that you have additional "atmospheric upset damping" when it isn't pressed. The green SAS indicators on the Control Indicator aren't 100% gospel of the flight computer's logic.

With the same control settings applied to the Huey, I don't find the Huey any easier to fly than the AH-64. It feels different and it needs to be flown differently because of how it responds to control inputs, and it normally takes me a few minutes to get myself out of my AH-64 flying mindset and into the UH-1's, but both helicopters require constant control adjustments to keep the aircraft flying how you want it to. Helicopters fly using a delicate balance of various opposing forces, and these forces are constantly changing magnitude. This requires inputs to maintain a balance against all these forces.

The Ka-50's dampers behave slightly differently than the AH-64D's, and the Ka-50 is also several tons heavier. Different helicopters require different control inputs and have their own "feel". I'm not saying "git gud", but when it comes down to it, the AH-64D is actually easy to handle if you avoid trying to fly it like a UH-1 or a Ka-50. There are some similarities between them, but at the end of the day they are different helicopters.

It's the same thing as the F-16 vs the F/A-18. They have similarities, but both fly different and were designed to dogfight differently.

Thank you very much for the feedback!  So if I understand correctly, the current behaviour when holding FTR is already correct and is not expected to change much?  I guess a I'll better start to practice then. Thanks!

[Raptor9]

8 minutes ago, cow_art said:

So if I understand correctly, the current behaviour when holding FTR is already correct and is not expected to change much?

Correct.

But let me ask you a question to clarify. Are you referring to stability of the aircraft in general or are you referring to yaw stability when at low speeds?

The reason I ask is that Heading Hold is always present below 40 knots ground speed when the force trim isn't pressed, the pedals are within 3% of their force trim reference, and the yaw rate is less than 3 deg per second.

So if that's that case, you may have been mistaking Heading Hold for yaw damping (which is also present but behaves within the overarching SAS logic).

[cow_art]

16 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

Correct.

But let me ask you a question to clarify. Are you referring to stability of the aircraft in general or are you referring to yaw stability when at low speeds?

The reason I ask is that Heading Hold is always present below 40 knots ground speed when the force trim isn't pressed, the pedals are within 3% of their force trim reference, and the yaw rate is less than 3 deg per second.

So if that's that case, you may have been mistaking Heading Hold for yaw damping (which is also present but behaves within the overarching SAS logic).

I am referring to the stability of the aircraft in general (I know about the heading hold).  It's a bit hard to describe, but for example:  Hold modes off. When the aircraft is really slow (either in a manual IGE hover or for example a very slow forward motion) and I just press and hold the FTR (without any additional inputs) it feels like the aircraft's center of gravity immediately starts to shift and the Apache becomes unbalanced. While FTR is not pressed, keeping the aircraft stable feels really easy (only minimal corrections needed like in other helicopters, e.g. the Hind). But as soon as i press and hold the FTR my workload to keep the aircraft stable goes through the roof (again much like the Hind where holding the trim button REALLY completely disables all the AP assists). But I guess that's just how it is in the real life Apache then?

Edit: I just tried this again and found my description to be not accurate. The difference in workload I have experienced really might just be due to heading hold getting turned off when FTR is pressed, as you suggested. So disregard plz and thanks again for the feedback!

Edited October 16, 2022 by cow_art

[Scaley]

On 10/15/2022 at 6:58 PM, Raptor9 said:

The green SAS indicators on the Control Indicator aren't 100% gospel of the flight computer's logic.

Is that bug reported? That sounds like it's going to lead to loads of people struggling with the SCAS and/or misinterpreting what it's doing or not doing in various conditions.

[deloy]

Apparently I didn’t feel any difference in flight behaviour between flight FTR pressed and switching all SCAS channels to off .  So it seems flying with FTR pressed does not correspond to function in real apache. I thought it’s a bug and has been reported but did I miss something here ?  

[Raptor9]

4 hours ago, Scaley said:

Is that bug reported? That sounds like it's going to lead to loads of people struggling with the SCAS and/or misinterpreting what it's doing or not doing in various conditions.

My point is that there is more going on under the hood than just the green SCAS indicators; and has been stated many times before, the flight model and FMC are works in progress. I wouldn't be taking any behavior of those little green indicators as certainty for how the FMC functions, because it isn't finished yet.

[RodBorza]

On 10/15/2022 at 3:16 PM, Raptor9 said:

Correct.

But let me ask you a question to clarify. Are you referring to stability of the aircraft in general or are you referring to yaw stability when at low speeds?

The reason I ask is that Heading Hold is always present below 40 knots ground speed when the force trim isn't pressed, the pedals are within 3% of their force trim reference, and the yaw rate is less than 3 deg per second.

So if that's that case, you may have been mistaking Heading Hold for yaw damping (which is also present but behaves within the overarching SAS logic).

Thanks for the info. I am now flying with the FTR pressed in speeds above 40 knots and the helo is behaving very well, easy to control, no more SAS saturation (since I'm pressing the FTR to move to a new attitude, naturally the SCAS will reset while I press the FTR, so no more SAS Saturated warnings, which is good).

However, at low speeds, in take off and landing conditions I do not press the FTR because the system becomes very loose, and I tend to lose control of the helicopter. What I do when coming down to land is to set a desired attitude, then move, tap the FTR, move tap the FTR, adjusting trim in small incrementes and then no FTR pressed, no tapping the Trim, just moving the controls to fine tune the landing.

Maybe it has to do with the Heading Hold always present below 40 knots, and I confess that I didn't understand how it affects the helo behavior at these low speeds.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

I may have the wrong technique but I recall as there is no ‘magic’ hover hold, we combine ATT and ALT hold to try and help bring the Apache to a stable hover. But I often end up with the Apache facing in the wrong direction and tap-tap trim the pedals/yaw to try and overcome the SAS bit by bit without the sudden lurch. Would it be better to just turn off ATT when adjusting hover yaw? I could simply test it but am not at PC now. Thanks

[TZeer]

The correct thing to do is getting into a stable hover and trim, before activating any of the hold modes.

If you dont, you might end up with a system that has very little left before it gets saturated.

The hold modes is not to get you into a stable hover, it's there to help you stay there.

Thats how I "understand" the system.

I might be wrong, as I'm not a real pilot

 

 

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

3 hours ago, TZeer said:

The correct thing to do is getting into a stable hover and trim, before activating any of the hold modes.

If you dont, you might end up with a system that has very little left before it gets saturated.

The hold modes is not to get you into a stable hover, it's there to help you stay there.

Thats how I "understand" the system.

I might be wrong, as I'm not a real pilot

 

 

I find activating both ALT and ATT hold modes just before stable hover helps me get into a stable hover. I also trim to position the stick X and pedal X (controls indicator) in the 'hover pattern' (stick X a little down and left of center, pedal X a bit left from center). I just end up facing the wrong direction.

[Scaley]

On 10/17/2022 at 10:10 PM, Raptor9 said:

My point is that there is more going on under the hood than just the green SCAS indicators; and has been stated many times before, the flight model and FMC are works in progress. I wouldn't be taking any behavior of those little green indicators as certainty for how the FMC functions, because it isn't finished yet.

I fully appreciate it isn't finished, and WIP, and BETA, and EA, etc.  What I was attempting to get at, perhaps badly, was that right now if you are saying the control indicator does not actually indicate the control position then trying to learn what the aircraft does/how the systems work is somewhat difficult. I realise it's all written in the manual, but as you have stated before the manual reflects how the real system works and how the DCS system will work in the future, it doesn't reflect the actual software we have right now. While it's obviously technically true to say "it's EA/WIP, stuff might be wrong" that's not too helpful to us mere mortals trying to learn to use this thing. Equally, from the 2nd post you've written it seems like you are saying "the green indicators MIGHT" be inaccurate not "they absolutely are inaccurate, because of x".

For clarity I'm no ED bashing, I'm not trying to complain because it's EA and I want it better/faster/more correct, and I fully understand software development and the various pulls on dev time, budgets, coding expertise, etc, etc 

My only point is, if the control indicators are ACTUALLY KNOWN to be inaccurate then that is a bug, and a pretty big one. It's also one that is basically impossible for the user to identify without serious hacking the code or some VERY detailed testing. So far you're the only person I've seen suggest that the control indicator doesn't reflect the actual control positions. Either the ED devs think it is accurate (in which case I'm not arguing because I can't detect if it is accurate or not) or they think it isn't accurate, and it should be bug reported internally. Either way it seems like a simple thing to check.

[pii]

22 hours ago, Scaley said:

My only point is, if the control indicators are ACTUALLY KNOWN to be inaccurate then that is a bug, and a pretty big one.

I don't think its that big of  deal, I don't even look at it once I've taken off, why would I need to?

[Scaley]

4 hours ago, pii said:

I don't think its that big of  deal, I don't even look at it once I've taken off, why would I need to?

I totally agree, you don't need to in order to fly the aircraft and I never have the indicator up normally. However, for example if you are trying to teach someone, or  learn something, then having control indicators that give you inaccurate information is fairly limiting since you might be learning based on inaccurate feedback about what the aircraft is doing, or supposed to be doing.