F-16 Orion 2 MFSSB tuning

[Zaphael]

Hoping to find other MFSSB owners here. I'm trying to configure / tune the MFSSB such that I get a more linear response (instead of PIO all over the place).

It is currently set on F-16 mode, where the max deflection is the 1/4 inch input of deflection (like in the real jet). 

But somehow the deflection is somewhat non linear and almost as though there is a tough dead zone in the middle.

Are there curves that we need to set in DCS ? And what sort of curves are we looking at?

 

[Vortex225]

I have the RealSimulator FSSB R3L, which is similar to your stick and also force-sensing. 

 

You shouldn't have to set any curves with a good force-sensing solution. The response is naturally very smooth and precise, and the sensitivity should be adjustable outside of DCS. If you're encountering PIO, I recommend tuning your sensitivity downward so that the force required to reach max deflection is higher. 

 

As for the deadzone near the center, the RealSimulator software has a breakout force setting that controls how much force is required to overcome the center deadzone. My guess is that you probably have a software setting you could adjust to make it easier to breakout of the deadzone. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Vortex225

[Zaphael]

RS FSSB is a very similar product. My winwing MFSSB is set to F-16 mode where the max force output is the max force input required to move the 1/4 inch movement of the stick. Is this the same with R3L?

Not sure if you encounter this as well but particularly with the lateral left stick input.

When I push the stick to the left, it feels like it has a larger dead zone than right. So it's harder to get the same slow smooth lateral left stick input as compared to the right lateral stick inputs. 

Imagine AAR with that.

 

Also, my understanding is that the inputs for AAR is supposed to be dampened. It does not feel so in DCS. Or perhaps it doesn't feel so in force sensing sticks.

 

 

[AlexCaboose]

On 10/22/2022 at 1:53 AM, Zaphael said:

RS FSSB is a very similar product. My winwing MFSSB is set to F-16 mode where the max force output is the max force input required to move the 1/4 inch movement of the stick. Is this the same with R3L?

Not sure if you encounter this as well but particularly with the lateral left stick input.

When I push the stick to the left, it feels like it has a larger dead zone than right. So it's harder to get the same slow smooth lateral left stick input as compared to the right lateral stick inputs. 

Imagine AAR with that.

 

Also, my understanding is that the inputs for AAR is supposed to be dampened. It does not feel so in DCS. Or perhaps it doesn't feel so in force sensing sticks.

 

 

No, the FSSB doesn't move. It also has software settings that allow you to adjust the left/right and forward/back force requirements separately.

[VampireNZ]

I also have the RS FSSB and while that stick DOES actually move (as per the real Viper stick, as no movement at all didn't make the pilots very happy), it is only minimal like 1/4". Using the stick you don't even notice the movement and it is inconsequential really - you are not trying to 'reach a certain amount of movement' or anything - just using pressure.

You also need a LOT of force, probably way more than you think.  Say around 25lbs in pitch, and 17lbs in roll or thereabouts for a 'real' feel. I used to run around 12lbs in pitch and 7 in roll on the RS, which felt like a LOT - you need a pretty sturdy mount!

You also need to 'offset' the pitch axis as if you have mounted it on your side - you don't pull directly backwards, there is always a bit of sideward deflection too, so I imagine in your software you can input some rotation to the pitch axis.

One last thing that also might impact why you are noticing a change rolling left - you don't have the same load for LH and RH lateral  movement, as you can naturally pull a lot more 'inwards' - so left roll, than you can 'pushing outwards' with your forearm, so RH roll. Because of this you set the RH force to maybe 60%-75% of the LH roll force and you will find with the same effort you are rolling equally.

A good way to check is just open the whatever calibration software you have, or even the axis tune in DCS, close your eyes, then move the stick from one extreme to the other in pitch, roll etc just by feel and have someone watch the output - obviously the pitch +/- should be purely inline, and the L & R movememnt should be equal...if you get me.

I also use a small program called FreePIE that actually beeps at you when you are reaching the limits of movement much tlike the Gripen etc, so you don't just yank like hell and break it off thinking you are getting more movement. Once it starts beeping you know you are at 95% (configurable) of total axis movement/force available.

A previous thread about the sidestick - 

 Is pretty awesome once you get it dialled in, makes flying the F-16 really fun!

 

EDIT: Also have this interesting document on Sidestick design requirements from back in 79 when they were designing the Viper etc.

Flying Qualities Design Requirements for Sidestick Controllers

Is stamped "Approved for public release; distribution uinlimited" - so assume it is safe to post here. If not then ED, feel free - I don't need more points for posting public docs lol.

Edited November 12, 2022 by VampireNZ

[Gunfreak]

On 11/12/2022 at 4:42 AM, VampireNZ said:

I also have the RS FSSB and while that stick DOES actually move (as per the real Viper stick, as no movement at all didn't make the pilots very happy), it is only minimal like 1/4". Using the stick you don't even notice the movement and it is inconsequential really - you are not trying to 'reach a certain amount of movement' or anything - just using pressure.

You also need a LOT of force, probably way more than you think.  Say around 25lbs in pitch, and 17lbs in roll or thereabouts for a 'real' feel. I used to run around 12lbs in pitch and 7 in roll on the RS, which felt like a LOT - you need a pretty sturdy mount!

You also need to 'offset' the pitch axis as if you have mounted it on your side - you don't pull directly backwards, there is always a bit of sideward deflection too, so I imagine in your software you can input some rotation to the pitch axis.

One last thing that also might impact why you are noticing a change rolling left - you don't have the same load for LH and RH lateral  movement, as you can naturally pull a lot more 'inwards' - so left roll, than you can 'pushing outwards' with your forearm, so RH roll. Because of this you set the RH force to maybe 60%-75% of the LH roll force and you will find with the same effort you are rolling equally.

A good way to check is just open the whatever calibration software you have, or even the axis tune in DCS, close your eyes, then move the stick from one extreme to the other in pitch, roll etc just by feel and have someone watch the output - obviously the pitch +/- should be purely inline, and the L & R movememnt should be equal...if you get me.

I also use a small program called FreePIE that actually beeps at you when you are reaching the limits of movement much tlike the Gripen etc, so you don't just yank like hell and break it off thinking you are getting more movement. Once it starts beeping you know you are at 95% (configurable) of total axis movement/force available.

A previous thread about the sidestick - 

 Is pretty awesome once you get it dialled in, makes flying the F-16 really fun!

 

EDIT: Also have this interesting document on Sidestick design requirements from back in 79 when they were designing the Viper etc.

Flying Qualities Design Requirements for Sidestick Controllers

Is stamped "Approved for public release; distribution uinlimited" - so assume it is safe to post here. If not then ED, feel free - I don't need more points for posting public docs lol.

 

From what I understand the winwing has a max force of 6kg on all axis. Which is less that even the roll axis of the real thing, 17lb being 7.7kg

So I'm not sure if the winwing one is very realistic. That said 6kg of force is a lot. I did a dogfight with 6kg on all directions and it was very tiresome, 6kg pitch up was OK for a short period  but holding 4-6kg in pitch up during  a prolonged two circle was tiresome. And while 6kg is OK in the the left roll, in the right roll.  It feels like a lot, it's an unnatural way to move the arms that way.

[VampireNZ]

3 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

From what I understand the winwing has a max force of 6kg on all axis. Which is less that even the roll axis of the real thing, 17lb being 7.7kg

So I'm not sure if the winwing one is very realistic. That said 6kg of force is a lot. I did a dogfight with 6kg on all directions and it was very tiresome, 6kg pitch up was OK for a short period  but holding 4-6kg in pitch up during  a prolonged two circle was tiresome. And while 6kg is OK in the the left roll, in the right roll.  It feels like a lot, it's an unnatural way to move the arms that way.

Yes the actual forces of the real thing must be gruelling - the RS can have much higher loads if you want but I limited my settings a little to not stress the base..or my pretty substantial installation base on side of simrig!

Just drop the right roll setting to much lower than left as mentioned as yep you are much weaker pushing away than pulling inwards. Eentually you will hae it set so they feel eactly equal in each direction for same amount of roll.

[Zaphael]

Managed to sort out the tuning of the MFSSB. And I have to say this thing feels damn good now. Super precise and intuitive for formation flight/tanking, and great for rough housing.

For those who are keen, use the winwing simapp pros software to set the following:

1. F-16 realistic mode

2. Set deadzone 5% on x and y axes.

Use linear in DCS. Don't set curves.

It may feel twitchy for those who are used to hamfisting the stick. But this comes pretty close to how it's meant to be flown... 

[Jackjack171]

On 12/14/2022 at 1:48 AM, Zaphael said:

Managed to sort out the tuning of the MFSSB. And I have to say this thing feels damn good now. Super precise and intuitive for formation flight/tanking, and great for rough housing.

For those who are keen, use the winwing simapp pros software to set the following:

1. F-16 realistic mode

2. Set deadzone 5% on x and y axes.

Use linear in DCS. Don't set curves.

It may feel twitchy for those who are used to hamfisting the stick. But this comes pretty close to how it's meant to be flown... 

Thank you for the advice. I have this stick and at first, I could not get it set right for my taste. Force sensing takes some getting used to. I set mine as per your advice and it really feels good now.

[darkman222]

I dont want to make double posts, but consider to have a look at a test I did in another more general thread about force sensing sticks:

 

[Beezer]

also check this thread:

Papamiraculi came up with a solution that works perhaps even better than the realistic mode.

[Delta-canard]

Maybe beating a dead horse but I'll have a go. I basically followed the thread mentioned in the previous post, I use firce+ displacement set at 40%, 3 blade springs on pitch up, 2 blades on all other aces and some cardboard inserted in the gimbal. I still feel I'm fighting the plane and actually straining my muscles (ok, being on a twisty chair doesn't help)  It is controllable, in Aar I actually have more difficulty with handling my throttle than with the stick... But flying the Mirage with the same setup feels much smoother. Is it intended like this or am I doing something wrong? 

Basically I've been trying hard to love this plane, I se very well why it is so great but I don't have the same blast as with the Mirage or the Harrier.

[Jackjack171]

On 6/6/2024 at 2:04 AM, Delta-canard said:

Maybe beating a dead horse but I'll have a go. I basically followed the thread mentioned in the previous post, I use firce+ displacement set at 40%, 3 blade springs on pitch up, 2 blades on all other aces and some cardboard inserted in the gimbal. I still feel I'm fighting the plane and actually straining my muscles (ok, being on a twisty chair doesn't help)  It is controllable, in Aar I actually have more difficulty with handling my throttle than with the stick... But flying the Mirage with the same setup feels much smoother. Is it intended like this or am I doing something wrong? 

Basically I've been trying hard to love this plane, I se very well why it is so great but I don't have the same blast as with the Mirage or the Harrier.

I have to ask, how old is your Orion2? I just recently got a new one a month ago and it operates better than the previous one. In fact, it is so good that I didn't have to do any of what you did. I was going to but no need.

The settings that I use: Fully realistic and no dead zone. 

I'm not sure if Winwing listened to the feedback of the previous Orion but I think that they improved the MFSSB software. Give it a try if you have the latest.
 

[Delta-canard]

That's interesting! I got my Orion 4 months ago. I'll have to try the fully realistic mode.