Weapons Being Shot Down

[bonesvf103]

Lately it doesn't matter if I use a HARM, JSOW, Maverick, SLAM-ER, Harpoon etc against a SAM or a SAM defended target, the weapon I used almost always gets shot down.  I've tried overwhelming them with numbers, using low profiles, getting in close to cut down on their reaction time, but nothign seems to work.

Does anyone have a solution to this?  I even read somewhere that JDAMs or dumb bombs were even getting shot down.

v6,

boNes

[GGTharos]

Bring more planes.  Against certain types of SAMs you can make them look one way and have weapons come in from a different direction.

Edited November 25, 2022 by GGTharos

[bonesvf103]

Makes sense.  Guess that makes it futile in a SP game though.

v6,

boNes

[GGTharos]

If the scenario is set up right, you can work with it ... if it's set up with you as the 'hero', well, yeah  

[SharpeXB]

Using a combination of HARMs in Pullback Mode and AGM-65s together can work pretty well. Stay behind terrain in order to get close enough to use the Mavericks and then when you’re inbound and the radar targets you, launch the HARMs. Those will force the radar to turn off and then you can press the attack with the Mavs

[Tholozor]

Don't forget you also have access to TALDs, which are great for distracting/draining SAM systems.

[bonesvf103]

Yes I’ve used TALDs too but then I can’t carry as many HARMs or Mavs.  I have to remember to not overtake my TALDs too!  Thanks for the suggestion!

 

v6,

boNes

[Drac]

What SAMs and other defensive units are protecting the target (what is the target) you are trying to hit?  Info will help with a strategy.

[bonesvf103]

23 hours ago, Drac said:

What SAMs and other defensive units are protecting the target (what is the target) you are trying to hit?  Info will help with a strategy.

It was a moving convoy that had tanks in it but bringing up the rear was an SA-15.  This one SA-15 just keeps shooting the Mavericks down.

 

I just thought of another strategy.  What if I kept baiting the SA-15 to shoot until he runs out of missiles?  Is that futile?

v6,

boNes

[Drac]

13 minutes ago, bonesvf103 said:

It was a moving convoy that had tanks in it but bringing up the rear was an SA-15.  This one SA-15 just keeps shooting the Mavericks down.

 

I just thought of another strategy.  What if I kept baiting the SA-15 to shoot until he runs out of missiles?  Is that futile?

v6,

boNes

The strategy stated right above your post should work.  Go in NOE and popup within 10nm with HARMS.  I have done it myself.

[Dragon1-1]

That should work, HARM goes so fast that it should not be possible to intercept. SA-15 is quite advanced and it carries 8 missiles, it's unlikely you'd be able to evade them all.

[Mars Exulte]

On 11/26/2022 at 4:52 PM, bonesvf103 said:

SA-15

 Just as an aside, the Sa-15 is specifically intended to do exactly that, and shoot down munitions. It's not very long range, but its missiles are very fast and maneuverable. Stuff like Mavericks are easy prey (big, and subsonic).

[bonesvf103]

Good to know, thanks!

 

v6,

boNes

[falcon_120]

it also works if you shoot harms around 30k - 35k ft, Mach 1 or above around 20nm/30nm specially if they are launched in PB mode.

When launched if PB mode they loft going quite high and coming down with lots of speed, in that case SAMs have also little reaction time even in Ace level.

BTW are jdams now shot down by SAMs? They have always been the magical weapon to take out SA15s and SA11 as it was the only one they never engaged, while it was possible to launch them very far if flying high and fast.

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[bonesvf103]

The problem with PB mode that I don't know much about is, does their radar have to be on?  If I launch in PB mode to kill say an SA-11 that I know the location of, or see the threat circle in the SA page, will it still hit if the SA-11 radar is off?

For that matter, can a HARM hit anything if they turn their radar off?  I think the old Shrike was able to remember the last place the radar was detected and would fly there, but does the HARM?

As for the tactic about going NOE until 10 nm and popping up, I tried it but I waited until I was 5 nm from the target, based on the SA page since there is no ranging in the HARM page.  My HARMs did not get shot down!  But, instead of directly hitting the SA-15, it hit very close to them but did not cause even splash damage.

I do not know if I popped up high enough, or if I was too close firing, but otherwise I don't know what else needed to be done.  My buddy shot at the usual high altitude further out and got a hit that caused 66% critical damage, maybe because the SA-15 was distracted by my attack I dunno.

Any thoughts?  Video is here, time stamped in the description:

 

v6,

boNes

[Dragon1-1]

1 hour ago, bonesvf103 said:

For that matter, can a HARM hit anything if they turn their radar off?  I think the old Shrike was able to remember the last place the radar was detected and would fly there, but does the HARM?

Shrike couldn't, it was basically a Sparrow tuned for SAM radars instead of ownship radar reflections. The Standard ARM, which came later, could do that, so can the HARM, but this only allows it to reacquire the source if it turns off and on again while the missile is still in flight (Shrike would be trashed by that trick, to chagrin of many a Vietnam-era Weasel). The big problem is that by its nature passive radar homing becomes more accurate as they get closer to target, and it doesn't start out very accurate at all. So, even if the missile remembers the location, it doesn't do it much good because it doesn't yet know it with sufficient accuracy to hit.

Also, HARMs miss, in DCS and IRL. They also have a small warhead. 5nm does not give it a whole lot of room to maneuver, and sometimes it just misses anyway. As far as SA-15 goes, it would trash the radar dish, but not damage the vehicle itself even on a direct hit.

[bonesvf103]

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Shrike couldn't, it was basically a Sparrow tuned for SAM radars instead of ownship radar reflections. The Standard ARM, which came later, could do that, so can the HARM, but this only allows it to reacquire the source if it turns off and on again while the missile is still in flight (Shrike would be trashed by that trick, to chagrin of many a Vietnam-era Weasel). The big problem is that by its nature passive radar homing becomes more accurate as they get closer to target, and it doesn't start out very accurate at all. So, even if the missile remembers the location, it doesn't do it much good because it doesn't yet know it with sufficient accuracy to hit.

I think maybe I was watching the "Flight of the Intruder" movie too many times, haha.

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Also, HARMs miss, in DCS and IRL. They also have a small warhead. 5nm does not give it a whole lot of room to maneuver, and sometimes it just misses anyway. As far as SA-15 goes, it would trash the radar dish, but not damage the vehicle itself even on a direct hit.

Have a look at the video I posted and see  how close the HARM hit.  i would think the SA-15 would take some damage from that but it didn't.  See the video description for time stamps.

v6,

boNes

Edited December 2, 2022 by bonesvf103

[Dragon1-1]

4 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

i would think the SA-15 would take some damage from that but it didn't. 

The HARM has a 150lb warhead. The SA-15 is mounted on an armored vehicle. It's not a tank, but a near miss would be laughed off just the same. A truck-mounted system would be likely be hurt at least a bit, but not SA-15.

The Intruder did carry the Standard, BTW. I don't remember what was in the movie, but IRL, that's likely what they'd have been using (it did carry the Shrike, too, but Standard was preferred for anything that could use it). 

[Hobel]

Am 3.12.2022 um 02:28 schrieb Dragon1-1:

The HARM has a 150lb warhead. The SA-15 is mounted on an armored vehicle. It's not a tank, but a near miss would be laughed off just the same. A truck-mounted system would be likely be hurt at least a bit, but not SA-15.

The Intruder did carry the Standard, BTW. I don't remember what was in the movie, but IRL, that's likely what they'd have been using (it did carry the Shrike, too, but Standard was preferred for anything that could use it). 

Hm but why did the harm strike so far before the SA15? 

Was the radar already off?   @bonesvf103

Edited December 5, 2022 by Hobel

[GGTharos]

ARMs lack accuracy for a bunch of reasons.   The CEP likely accounts for some minor ECM things the radar crew can do to try and prevent the missile from hitting them.

[bonesvf103]

11 hours ago, Hobel said:

Hm but why did the harm strike so far before the SA15? 

Was the radar already off?   @bonesvf103

 

I can't determine this off the top of my head right now.  I may have video of it and will have a look for clues there.  I was defensive against its missile at the time to notice.

 

I did try the stock HARMs v Russian SAMs IA mission for the Hornet and the SA-10 that I shot a HARM at landed like5 ft away from the SA-10 and there was no damage, splash or otherwise.

I'll have to look for video on that too.

v6,

boNes

[SickSidewinder9]

How realistic is it actually that the ai sam sites can shoot all these weapons down?

[Dragon1-1]

It's realistic, particularly the SA-15 and SA-10, which were specifically designed to deal small, low altitude threats. Newer SAMs are generally capable of shooting down missiles and even bombs.

[Hazardpro]

On 12/13/2022 at 3:45 PM, Dragon1-1 said:

It's realistic, particularly the SA-15 and SA-10, which were specifically designed to deal small, low altitude threats. Newer SAMs are generally capable of shooting down missiles and even bombs.

These systems have actually been getting quite a bit of combat experience lately, and there's been very little indication they actually perform so effectively as so many here are quick to believe against something as small and fast moving as an ARM. A lot of them have been destroyed by bombs.

On another note, the HARM has a blast frag warhead which means its effect on target isn't purely a question of distance but also trajectory. From what I understand, one of the major benefits of the known range modes IRL is not just a more efficient flight path but also a better pk of the warhead. I don't know if this is represented in DCS or not. 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Hazardpro

[Hazardpro]

On 12/2/2022 at 2:13 PM, Dragon1-1 said:

As far as SA-15 goes, it would trash the radar dish, but not damage the vehicle itself even on a direct hit.

 grade A nonsense right here