Is it worth it for the Gazelle?

[Alpiinoo]

Hello,

I'll buy Gazelle but I've read bad things about FM. Is FM as bad as it sounds? Is it worth buying?

Thank.s

[Mordants]

I personally love the Gazelle. You will have to set at least some curves and saturation levels for the cyclic, but once that is done it's great. 

[Lace]

The Gazelle is a good module and my favourite DCS helicopter alongside the Hip.  As long as you fly it in a realistic way, it will perform in a realistic way.  It is a very light, manoeuvrable  and nimble helicopter.  You can push the envelope way beyond what any sane real-life helicopter pilot would, and you will get some very unrealistic results.  However, I don't feel that detracts from the module at all.  Most modules can be abused in a similar way.  For example, the Viper will allow you to exceed V_NE without consequences.  Fly as you would in real life, and you will enjoy the process more IMHO.

I mainly use it for recce, and I'm not sure how it currently works with multi-crew, which is pretty much essential for the anti-tank missiles.  For single pilot, guns and rockets are fine.

[Eugel]

3 hours ago, Mordants said:

I personally love the Gazelle. You will have to set at least some curves and saturation levels for the cyclic, but once that is done it's great. 

Agree, I saw some video of a former Gazelle pilot who gave some recommendations regarding curve/saturation, I set it up like that and it works like a charm.
The Gazelle has since become one of my favorite modules.

4 hours ago, Alpiinoo said:

Hello,

I'll buy Gazelle but I've read bad things about FM. Is FM as bad as it sounds? Is it worth buying?

Thank.s

The flight model might not be ultra-realistic, but I´m not a real life pilot, so I wouldn´t know either way. Personally, I wouldn´t call it bad, and it´s certainly not unplayable (like some make it sound)
I guess, it depends on what you want. I´d say it´s not very competitive (it can´t compete with an Apache or Hind in regards to firepower), except maybe the Mistral version in air-to-air combat.

But it´s relatively easy to learn and fun to fly.

[Ramsay]

9 hours ago, Alpiinoo said:

I'll buy Gazelle but I've read bad things about FM. Is FM as bad as it sounds?

The FM has it's flaws i.e. the cyclic control expects a spring centering joystick and IIRC the main rotor is missing dissymmetry of lift effects (changes in pitch and roll as it accelerates forward).

If you focus on the cockpit "picture" that frames the horizon (rather than cyclic position), you shouldn't have much of issue as, IRL a pilot makes constant small cyclic adjustments while referencing the outside world. It's just that the DCS Gazelle requires the cyclic to be returned to the center position, while IRL it would be held/trimmed to a center offset to maintain equilibrium in a hover, for forward flight, etc.

IIRC PC described the current cyclic sensitivity as correct, but we should expect to displace the cyclic from it's center position during flight once their new FM engine is ported to the Gazelle i.e. at some unknown time after the Kiowa release.

 

9 hours ago, Alpiinoo said:

Is it worth buying?

Yes, especially when on sale. It's still one of my favourite helicopters despite it's flaws i.e. it's RWR gives good feedback on air threats in a MP environment and hence a sense of danger when flying nap of the earth (to avoid detection) even when nothing much is happening .

IIRC the SP Campaign is broken (due to changes in DCS's AI behaviours) and the Gazelle Minigun variant has had problems with firing the gun due to recoding the Module(s) in preparation to unifying the different versions i.e. so you might land at a FARP in an Gazelle "L" and switch weapons, remove doors, etc.

IIRC the 3 core variants: M, L and Mistral have been otherwise trouble free.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Ramsay

[Alpiinoo]

Thanks for the all answers. This module will be my first helicopter.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Alpiinoo

[BuzzLine]

1 hour ago, Alpiinoo said:

Thanks for the all answers. This module will be my first helicopter.

Helicopters are awfully fun to fly. Assuming you overcome the frustrations of the first 100hrs until you understand how to land them  (I'm a slow learner). Practice, practice, practice and it will click. One piece of advice : the collective is very sensitive so when you're approaching hover (or landing) your adjustments will need to be almost imperceptible. Gaz has stability assists and a simpler flight model, that will help you, but in exchange it needs to be handled with a delicate touch ! 

Many people have posted the curves they use so do take inspiration from them and experiment what works best for you. 

GLHF !

[NeedzWD40]

I would recommend doing the free trial first rather than buying it as your first helicopter. It can be a fun module, but as a first helicopter it has a lot of limitations that can be disappointing and the handling can be very squirrely as well as unrealistic. At a minimum, I'd trial the UH-1 before committing, as that module sets the right kind of framework before jumping into the Gazelle.

[SPAS79]

def do the flight trial and  as first helos DO NOT get the gazelle or the Ka50, they are the less helicopter-like of the RW in DCS. Huey, Mi8, Apache, UH60 are the ones with good RW FM (in that order) IDK about the Mi24 as I do not own it. 

PS I used to fly RW for a hobby so while not exactly the machines we have in DCS I have some idea of how a helicopter should fly. 

[BuzzLine]

+1 on the UH60, especially since it is free  

Mi24 FM is interesting too, "feels" right too but it's a tricky beast to fly, being both heavy and powerful. But Huey remains my favorite to learn helicoptering.

[Beirut]

16 hours ago, SPAS79 said:

def do the flight trial and  as first helos DO NOT get the gazelle or the Ka50, they are the less helicopter-like of the RW in DCS. Huey, Mi8, Apache, UH60 are the ones with good RW FM (in that order) IDK about the Mi24 as I do not own it. 
 

 

Scandalous! 

 

The Ka-50 is a fantastic helicopter. Great fun to fly, fast, maneuverable, and hits like a sledgehammer. The Gazelle, even with the funky FM, is good fun because it is so light and has amazing visibility out of the cockpit. Great sensation of flight and you really get to enjoy the terrain with it.

 

 

[SPAS79]

LOL I'm not bashing any of the two. I love my Ka50, and I want to love the Gazelle. I'm just saying that they behave less helicopter-y than the rendition of the Mi8 or Huey that we have. Hell even the Apache as it is now in EA behaves more like a helicopter than the Shark or the Gazelle. 

The UH-60L also has some weird behavior re its response to inputs and the whole trim system... but that I can deal with in light of the fact that it is a free mod. So, if anybody wanted to have a go at starting with helos I would advise that (especially the UH-60L free or the free AH-6J helicopter EFM demo mod, which is and has always been a pretty fun little thing to fly and behaves as you would expect a helo to behave).

And this is why I would not advise anybody to start with Ka50 or Gazelle. They will give false expectations of how a helicopter behaves, if one hasn't got that knowledge already from somewhere else. 

This said, again, I have left the Ka50 in the hangar since I grabbed the Apache, and I am feeling I should really take it out again to brush up a little on procedures etc. It's just that flying the others is being too good at the moment.

Edited February 16, 2023 by SPAS79
typo

[jumphigh]

5 minutes ago, SPAS79 said:

They will give false expectations of how a helicopter behaves, if one hasn't got that knowledge already from somewhere else. 

But what's the correct behaviour of a helicopter??? As a RC helicopter pilot I know the old way of mechanical stabilisation and the new way with electronic gyros. It's the same with modern "real" helicopters. They have electronic flight augmentation systems – even an old thing like the Gazelle. You can't compare their flight with much more older non-stabilised models like the Huey. Our Gazelle might be wrong for the real thing but not impossible for helicopters in general.

[Beirut]

10 minutes ago, SPAS79 said:

LOL I'm not bashing any of the two. I love my Ka50,

 

As well you should, sir. 

 

10 minutes ago, SPAS79 said:

and I want to love the Gazelle. I'm just saying that they behave less helicopter-y than the rendition of the Mi8 or Huey that we have. Hell even the Apache as it is now in EA behaves more like a helicopter than the Shark or the Gazelle.

 

I'm not sure if I'm a good enough virtual pilot to argue with you on that one. But I do know that the Mi-8 flies like a dream. If only the cockpit we brought up to date.  

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, SPAS79 said:

 

And this is why I would not advise anybody to start with Ka50 or Gazelle. They will give false expectations of how a helicopter behaves, if one hasn't got that knowledge already from somewhere else. 

 

Yeah, maybe. I started with the Huey, which I enjoyed but barely touch now. But it is a very good module. 

 

10 minutes ago, SPAS79 said:

This said, again, I have left the Ka50 in the hangar since I grabbed the Apache, and I am feeling I should really take it out again to brush up a little on procedures etc. It's just that flying the others is being too good at the moment.

 

Too many choppers and not enough time. I like the fancy aspects of the Apache but I fly it poorly. 

 

I'll fly them all for fun, but it's pretty much the Ka-50 and Mi-8 that make me want to fly well.

[SPAS79]

IDK seems unlikely to me that it will conserve rotational momentum when you bring the cyclic back to center. That's just not what a helicopter does. But this debate is long dead. If you think it is fine as it is, it's ok with me. I'm not saying it's bad, all I'm saying it is just that it behaves more like you would expect an airplane to behave, rather than a helicopter. If you trim a helo, the control stays where you trimmed it, (even if you have SAS, SCAS Autopilot, autohover, what have you) it is a way of giving feedback to the pilot as to what the machine is doing. If the cyclic goes back to center, the rotor disc goes back to center (whatever that center is, could be slightly canted to counteract a translational tendency or could be perfectly orthogonal leaving the countering to the pilot) the point being, helicopters do not continue doing things when you stop telling them to, they go back at their "neutral" state. At least that's the tendency in general. 

I don't really want to go into this discussion any more, and yes, I agreem flying the gazelle sometimes does feel like flying an RC model. I guess it's just very light and very powerful. 

5 minutes ago, Beirut said:

Too many choppers and not enough time. I like the fancy aspects of the Apache but I fly it poorly. 

It would be my pleasure to have you as a CPG or a pilot and have some fun. I know the thing decently now. 
Ontop, Beirut is one of the very few cities that left a mark in my heart so there's that, too. 

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by SPAS79

[Beirut]

15 minutes ago, SPAS79 said:

It would be my pleasure to have you as a CPG or a pilot and have some fun. I know the thing decently now. 
Ontop, Beirut is one of the very few cities that left a mark in my heart so there's that, too. 

 

I appreciate the invite. But with all the modules I have and the limited brain cells left functioning, I'm not sure I'll ever be proficient in the Apache. I just like the night vision and flying around.

 

And I have never been to Beirut, though I would love to go. It was my dog's name. My beautiful Beirut.  

[jumphigh]

24 minutes ago, SPAS79 said:

If you trim a helo, the control stays where you trimmed it, (even if you have SAS, SCAS Autopilot, autohover, what have you) it is a way of giving feedback to the pilot as to what the machine is doing. If the cyclic goes back to center, the rotor disc goes back to center (whatever that center is, could be slightly canted to counteract a translational tendency or could be perfectly orthogonal leaving the countering to the pilot) the point being, helicopters do not continue doing things when you stop telling them to, they go back at their "neutral" state. At least that's the tendency in general.

No, it depends on the model! For RC helos with FBL you control roll rates with your stick. There's no need for trimming – centred stick means stay at the current attitude. It's the task of the flight controller to achieve that – even if it means that the swash plate isn't neutral at all. Another example is rudder and tail. As a RC pilot I'm using a tail gyro, there's no need for pedal left when hovering like with the Huey. I talked to Tiger pilots but unfortunately they didn't even know what I'm talking about. It seems some "real" pilots have a narrow horizon not wider than the length of their blade. But take our UH-60 free mod: There you do not need rudder for a stable hover, too. So it seems that there are even real Biggies with modern electronics that mimics the flight model of a RC helicopters more than that of a ancient Huey.

Edited February 16, 2023 by jumphigh

[Ramstein]

only issue I found flying this and other helos was that on playing on server like Blu-Flag, the enemy can find you in the middle of no where on maps.. very strange... how do they do that? Even sitting near trees and in between hills...

[SPAS79]

On 2/16/2023 at 3:14 PM, jumphigh said:

No, it depends on the model! For RC helos with FBL you control roll rates with your stick. There's no need for trimming – centred stick means stay at the current attitude. It's the task of the flight controller to achieve that – even if it means that the swash plate isn't neutral at all. Another example is rudder and tail. As a RC pilot I'm using a tail gyro, there's no need for pedal left when hovering like with the Huey. I talked to Tiger pilots but unfortunately they didn't even know what I'm talking about. It seems some "real" pilots have a narrow horizon not wider than the length of their blade. But take our UH-60 free mod: There you do not need rudder for a stable hover, too. So it seems that there are even real Biggies with modern electronics that mimics the flight model of a RC helicopters more than that of a ancient Huey.

 

Er it just dawned on me that you might have misunderstood the phrase "I used to fly RW as a hobby" with "I used to fly RC as a hobby" perhaps? I meant real RW aircrafts. 

[streakeagle]

I primarily fly the DCS UH-1H for a variety of reasons, but I love all of the DCS helos. Realistic or not, the flight models are radically different for each model. Not counting free mods, the Gazelle is the only small, two-man helo. The flight model for the Gazelle is like a dragonfly compared to the other helos: agile, but sensitive and able to dart around. The Ka-50 and AH-64 are fly-by-wire helos. Very easy to fly, especially the Ka-50 with contra-rotating rotors. They are my least favorite because I don't want digital weapons systems and stabilization. The Mi-8 and Mi-24 are somewhere in the middle with some old style analog stabilization, but no computer limits to keep you out of trouble. The UH-1 feels heavy compared to the Gazelle. But it has no stabilization in reality. Unfortunately, ED/Belsimtek added artificial smoothing to the controls to keep people from doing bad things. Move your cyclic stick rapidly in one direction, then wait for the in-game stick to reach the same position. When the UH-1 was originally released, there was no lag. If you move the cyclic slow/gently, it keeps up and flies realistically. It is fun to jump from the Gazelle to the UH-1 to the Mi-8 to the Ka-50 to feel the difference in control responses. If you like helos, I reocmmend getting all of the DCS helos. But if I could only afford one, it would be the UH-1H.

[jumphigh]

On 2/17/2023 at 8:47 PM, SPAS79 said:

Er it just dawned on me that you might have misunderstood the phrase "I used to fly RW as a hobby" with "I used to fly RC as a hobby" perhaps? I meant real RW aircrafts. 

No, it was quite clear. But it's your fault to think that a RC helicopter is different to "real" RW aircrafts in general flight functioning. Furthermore modern flight augmentation systems work like the solutions used in the RC hobby, e.g. auto hover. Maybe you can't compare a Huey or a Robinson to a EC 145 as well?

Beside that: As a German I'm following the same rules of law as any other air space user. I'm forced to pay a special liability insurance, too. Since we build our own models some might know more about helicopter physics and technological details than "real" pilots who get their plane from a specialised technician out of the assembly hangar...

Okay, I'm exaggerating. But the claim is, that real Gazelle pilots tested this version and decided it's good enough. So it seems that there isn't the one and only truth even among real RW pilots. That doesn't mean that there aren't evident bugs in our DCS module. But bugs are a different story.

[Schmidtfire]

It got some issues. Not looking at the strange FM, the clipping of the gunsight, non-existent periscope, etc... 

Gazelle is still the only module I own where I can't switch off Labels during a mission.

Gazelle can still be fun and "worth it", but it's got quality issues.

[SPAS79]

This

explains why I don't like the thing perfectly and comparing it with data from a test report. I do not think this can be argued with, it clearly shows how the controls should behave and how they are not behaving in the Gazelle.

This said, the Gazelle is a fun little thing to fly and can be extremely rewarding as a scout. We have even used in a sort of wild weasel scenario with it zipping around a field and an Apache picking off the anti-air exposed by the gazelle flying around. She was untouched at the end and the pilot was all revved up. So, good fun in game. But calling it realistic or accurate is a bold statement, IMHO and in the opinion of this gentleman who made the video. 

 

[Alpiinoo]

I bought the Gazelle and I loved it. Thanks for all answers and advices. Fast and agile just as I expected.

[cfrag]

On 2/19/2023 at 6:35 PM, jumphigh said:

But it's your fault to think that a RC helicopter is different to "real" RW aircrafts in general flight functioning

Well... RC helicopters do function on the same general principles (they all rely on physics), but there is no RW helicopter that can match an RC helicopters massive power to weight ratio or incredibly rigidity of the rotor system. Relative to air density, the masses involved with an RC helicopter are drastically different, and they therefore perform far beyond (hence differently from) RW helicopters. As such both adhere to the same physics, yes, but they have completely different parameters, limits and therefore rules to abide by; compared to RW helicopters, gas (air) behaves more like a fluid for RCH, and hence flying an RC helicopter can be (and often is) markedly different; RCH often defy what is possible in RW helos. I posit that as a result, RC helos are inherently safer to fly and far more advanced than their big brethren.

On 2/19/2023 at 6:35 PM, jumphigh said:

I'm following the same rules of law as any other air space user. I'm forced to pay a special liability insurance, too. Since we build our own models some might know more about helicopter physics and technological details than "real" pilots who get their plane from a specialised technician out of the assembly hangar

With the marked difference that pilots sit in their cockpit and risk their life every single time they fly, so they have an even greater interest that nothing goes wrong and they understand what they are doing. There is a reason why most pilots are technophiles, and many also love to tinker with complex mechanical objects. My (civilian) pilot ed did cover a lot of theoretical and technical details ("how airplanes fly" and "why to strain fuel in the morning"), plus procedures, systems and RT, weather, and human factors. With an exam at the end for each. Licensed pilots usually know how planes are put together and why - and they get intensely taught on how they and their planes behave in a greater complex system (weather, fellow humans, human limitations, traffic, physics, communications, procedures).

Building model (and real-world) planes does indeed impart a deepened, excellent knowledge, and is a fascinating, illuminating, and a sometimes humbling experience every time I visit a hangar or motor shop - both model and RL (the sheer ingenuity of people floors me every time). Yet, much like building ships will not teach you how to swim, building planes will not help you to intuit flying (much less landing) an aircraft - that requires muscle memory and experience, in model as well as RL. I will grant that building your own plane may serve to greatly accelerate your understanding and help to drastically shorten the time until you successfully fly your planes - models or real.

On 2/19/2023 at 6:35 PM, jumphigh said:

So it seems that there isn't the one and only truth

Fully agree. That's what makes DCS so much fun  

That being said, I too would agree that the current Gazelle feels 'too light' when slow - even though I have no experience flying the real thing. Other than that, it's a phenomenally fun model to fly, especially in VR where it affords me with a view no other currently available model can rival.