AH64 & Thrustmaster HOTAS

[derbarbarian]

Hey guys, 

I have a couple of questions, so I pre-ordered the AH64 module way back when they first allowed pre-ordering it and I downloaded it on day 1, but I've found it to be kind of a hellish experience with the Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog to where I don't really even enjoy playing it, I've played all of 2-3 hours since it was first released. My question is, is there a better stick/throttle combo available for running these types of sims? Or are there addons that I could be using in conjunction with my HOTAS Warthog that would make it a more pleasurable experience? I have both the A-10 and F-18 stick, I've found that the F-18 stick actually works better for AH64 as is allows you to map a couple of extra bindings to the stick, but I'm still running into issues.. Additionally, does anyone have a good key binding profile saved for AH64 using the HOTAS Warthog that they've found worked really well that they wouldn't mind sharing? A big part of the problem I seem to run into is regarding the all of the different controls that you need to setup for the AH64 and it's been driving me nuts, trying to figure out what to control with what on the stick/throttle, it also seems like I've run out of buttons/controls that I can map. Anyways, any input would be appreciated. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by derbarbarian

[MAXsenna]

Get an extension and/or the green spring from Sahaj. The Warthog is way too stiff by default.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Toge]

My experiences with the Warthog HOTAS were similar. The stick base is quite stiff, and the spring forces you to "push through" the center every time you try to do small movements (which is basically 90% of the cyclic movements you do when flying helicopters), so I also didn't enjoy it at all. And second, there's not that many buttons, hats and switches, and the ones that are there either don't work very reliably or are otherwise not really optimal for apache bindings. And the analog mini-stick in the throttle is simply a disaster.

You can fix the stick base by replacing the spring and/or getting an extension, as said above. For me, the extension alone helped a bit, but I still wasn't happy.

As an alternative stick/throttle combo I can 100% recommend Virpil stuff. I now have the Constellation Alpha stick with WarBRD base (with 10cm extension), the CM3 throttle, and the ace flight pedals, and couldn't be happier. There's quite enough buttons and hats for all necessary bindings, and they actually work the way you expect them to, and also the analog mini sticks are accurate enough for controlling the TADS and the MPD cursor. I'm still considering buying an actual collective, but I'll wait until the apache collective handle is published later this year.

There are other high end stick/throttle/collective/pedal manufacturers too of course, but these are my experiences.

[edmuss]

No experience of the ah64 directly but are you using any modifier or mode switches in the DCS control bindings?  These will allow you to switch to a different control set with either a toggle or temporary hold modifier.  I use modifiers a lot with my warthog, using the stick pinky paddle and throttle mic switch to double up a lot of the bindings available that I use for various ancillaries, you can now also combine modifiers so you could use the paddle + mic + binding for triplication of available binds.  In theory you should be able to set a multi position toggle on the throttle to act as a mode switch and then be able to apply the modifiers to that as well.

Second the stick extension as well, I have a 75mm on my warthog and it transforms the stick, much more control and the movement over the centre is very lightweight, fingertip control for hovering in the hind without AP is possible without too much effort.  My warthog is over 10 years old now though so well bedded in.  A good set of rudder pedals (if you haven't already got some) are going to be essential though, I made my own and they transformed the helo experience but the MFG crosswinds have a very high reputation in these parts

[sirrah]

Imho, eventually, it all comes down to practice and getting used to something.

 

I flew DCS helo's since they were released (Ka-50 on DVD era)(can't remember if that one came before or after the Huey ). Initially I used my 15 yo TM Cougar set until the gimbal broke, then switched to TM Warthog, then switched to 10cm extended TM stick (never messed with springs) and now Virpil collective.

 

Apart from the broken gimbal, the only reason I switched, was to increase immersion/realism. But honestly, none of the improvements made me a better pilot. I could do just as much with my Cougar, as I can now with the Virpil and extended stick. But I do admit, it took me many many hours to get the right feeling.

 

(what did help me a be a better virtual pilot, was when I switched to VR, but that's another story)

 

 

 

 

[Floyd1212]

I would second (third?) the recommendation of replacing the Warthog base with something with cams and springs, and re-use the Warthog grip.  I personally like a lighter spring and a smooth cam, but any of the quality bases are better than the Warthog base for fine control around the centered position.

The Warthog throttle can work fine for the collective, though I recommend the mod to replace the cursor nub with a better analog stick.  There has been some good feedback in another thread for the Flight1 Falcon S1 pedals, which seem to be a pretty good bang for the buck.

When flying in the front seat, an Xbox controller will give you most of the controls you need to manage the TEDAC and sensors, at least until the FCR is added.

[bradmick]

I fly the thrustmaster warthog, works great with central position trimmer mode.

[macedk]

4 hours ago, bradmick said:

I fly the thrustmaster warthog, works great with central position trimmer mode.

Same. Training and curves until you a blue in the head

[KungFu]

I used to have a Warthog stick, before it died with buttons failing, I polished the gimbal and applied nyogel, man what a difference....it felt really good.   The best part about the gimbal in the warthog stick is that you feel no crossover like you do in regular gimbals.  That is one think the warthog has over most sticks nowadays

Now I run a VKB MCG Ultimate with heavy springs, strong center cam.  With a curve of 15 and saturation of 90 is near perfect on the cyclic  You would think that everything in the previous sentences make no sense for heli flying but it does work for me.   All the fine movements made are within the center and it has almost no resistance there.  It might be better with a progressive cam but I fly other things and I'd rather have a bit of resistance.  

[NIGHTHAWK1]

I use the logitech X-56 rinoh  Lots of switches, toggles, hats etc and 3 levels of modifiers.  helps a lot especially in VR

[derbarbarian]

Hey Guys, 

I appreciate all of the responses! I see a few of you guys recommend making some modifications, my concern about modifying is that the stick/throttle works great for the fixed wing aircraft that I fly in DCS, I have 13 Fixed wing modules for DCS from the P-51/Spitfire through F-14, F-16, F-18, AV8, Mirage, etc.  So I would hate to make modifications to the stick that would affect my ability to use it with those modules. I wouldn't say that my issue is controllability so much, it's more mapping and dealing with the collective, throttle, etc. Trying to get everything mapped out, which is why I'm wondering if there's perhaps a better stick/throttle for the AH64. I also have the UH-1 and Mi-24 modules. Which I don't really have an issue with the UH-1 due to it's simplicity, there aren't THAT many things that I need to map, plus with the throttle/collective it's easy to map one of the throttles to the throttle and the other to the collective since you can operate them independently of one another. With the AH64 since it has 2 throttles, plus the collective I'm having a hard time mapping that. If any of you have a good control scheme for the HOTAS Warthog that you wouldn't mind sharing, I'd be more than willing to give that a go. It honestly just bums me out not really being able to play/enjoy this module after spending $60 on it. From what I've seen from in-game footage and attempting to play it myself it seems like a really awesome module but I just can't seem to get it working well. 

 

[Floyd1212]

In the Apache, besides at startup and shutdown, there is not much need to adjust the throttles.  You set them to FLY and away you go.

I think a lot of people, myself included before I bought a collective, map one of the throttles on the HOTAS to the collective axis, and the unused one just comes along for the ride.  I use mouse and keyboard during startup/shutdown to manipulate the throttles in the cockpit.

[MAXsenna]

Changing the spring and grease the gimball, will just make it even better in those other modules.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[hreich]

For TM warthog  4 aftermarket mods and 1 TM warthog software app is a must.

1.Stick Extension to get better handling

2.Floor mount for stick 

3.Thumbstick replacement part

4.Afterburner detent slide-over mod (so that you dont need to lift throtlles to go over detent)

5. T.A.R.G.E.T. software from TM to get all the script options for endless button combos

 

null

Edited January 13, 2023 by hreich

[pii]

On 1/9/2023 at 6:04 AM, derbarbarian said:

Hey guys, 

I have a couple of questions, so I pre-ordered the AH64 module way back when they first allowed pre-ordering it and I downloaded it on day 1, but I've found it to be kind of a hellish experience with the Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog to where I don't really even enjoy playing it, I've played all of 2-3 hours since it was first released. My question is, is there a better stick/throttle combo available for running these types of sims? Or are there addons that I could be using in conjunction with my HOTAS Warthog that would make it a more pleasurable experience? I have both the A-10 and F-18 stick, I've found that the F-18 stick actually works better for AH64 as is allows you to map a couple of extra bindings to the stick, but I'm still running into issues.. Additionally, does anyone have a good key binding profile saved for AH64 using the HOTAS Warthog that they've found worked really well that they wouldn't mind sharing? A big part of the problem I seem to run into is regarding the all of the different controls that you need to setup for the AH64 and it's been driving me nuts, trying to figure out what to control with what on the stick/throttle, it also seems like I've run out of buttons/controls that I can map. Anyways, any input would be appreciated. 

 

The warthog has as strong spring in it and it can make it hard to fly helo's. You can remove the spring and you will be able to fly much better but you will have to hold the stick at all times, but it will let you experience actually controlling the 64D and its quite fun!. Search YouTube for TM HOTAS MOD

You can also get what is called a green spring that is lighter and may work for you or you can do what I did and buy a virpil Base for my WH stick and that was PERFECT!  

An extention may also help but I have no experence with that or how well they work..

Don't try to map everything, use the mouse and click the switches in the cockpit and only map the most important to your buttons. I always map them as I learn and find I remember them better that way. Having to memorize someone elses setup is too hard for me besides you don't have  enough buttons anyway.   However there are some lay outs for TM HOTAS around here someplace, lots in the file section. 

Do you have pedals ?

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by pii

[pii]

On 1/11/2023 at 4:38 AM, derbarbarian said:

Hey Guys, 

I appreciate all of the responses! I see a few of you guys recommend making some modifications, my concern about modifying is that the stick/throttle works great for the fixed wing aircraft that I fly in DCS, I have 13 Fixed wing modules for DCS from the P-51/Spitfire through F-14, F-16, F-18, AV8, Mirage, etc.  So I would hate to make modifications to the stick that would affect my ability to use it with those modules. I wouldn't say that my issue is controllability so much, it's more mapping and dealing with the collective, throttle, etc. Trying to get everything mapped out, which is why I'm wondering if there's perhaps a better stick/throttle for the AH64. I also have the UH-1 and Mi-24 modules. Which I don't really have an issue with the UH-1 due to it's simplicity, there aren't THAT many things that I need to map, plus with the throttle/collective it's easy to map one of the throttles to the throttle and the other to the collective since you can operate them independently of one another. With the AH64 since it has 2 throttles, plus the collective I'm having a hard time mapping that. If any of you have a good control scheme for the HOTAS Warthog that you wouldn't mind sharing, I'd be more than willing to give that a go. It honestly just bums me out not really being able to play/enjoy this module after spending $60 on it. From what I've seen from in-game footage and attempting to play it myself it seems like a really awesome module but I just can't seem to get it working well. 

 

You seem really worried about mapping stuff. Let it goooo  

Map them as you learn and use the mouse to click that cockpit switches. I don't even have my WH stick buttons filled up as I use the mouse mostly to click stuff in the cockpit. The stick buttons are mostly for weapons use in my setup.

Edited February 1, 2023 by pii

[silverdevil]

On 1/14/2023 at 8:57 PM, pii said:

Map them as you learn and use the mouse to click that cockpit switch.

this is key for me. i like the clickable so it is easy for me to transition to one of the other AC modules i have. i have a little mouse pad tray mounted to desk in the center of my desk. it retracts under the desk when i am using computer for something besides DCS. i have a G-pro gaming mouse. it also has buttons that can be mapped. after all a IRL pilot has to take their hand off one or the other HOTAS to click a switch or press a button. i also saw another post of a user that attached a wireless track pad to a kneeboard strap.

[FalcoGer]

I have the thrustmaster warthog and it works just fine for me. I am able to get all important bindings for both stations, including FCR. The ministick is a bit of a mess, I agree, but it works well enough. For the CPG station I added a modifier on the EAC ARM switch and this allows me to rebind everything for flight controls. In the CPG station I use the main stick as the man track controller and the ministick as cursor controller.

If you want I can lay out my mapping for you, and as far as I can tell, nothing is missing, except for CHOP, which makes no sense to me anyway.

Warthog	Apache PLT	Apache CPG (Exactly the same as Apache PLT with EAC ARM incl. WAS on Cyclic)
Stick
Trigger Stage 1/2	Weapons Trigger Switch Stage 1/2	LHG Weapons Trigger Switch Stage 1/2
Weapon Release (Pickle)	CUED Search Switch - Depress	LHG CUED Search Button
Pinkie Switch	Tail Wheel Lock/Unlock Button - Depress	RHG FLIR Polarity Button
Paddle Switch	IHADSS show	RHG LRFD Trigger - SECOND DETENT
Master Mode Button	Chaff Dispense Button - Depress	RHG Sight Slave Button
TMS U/R/L	Weapons Action Switch - G/M/R	LHG Weapons Action (WAS) Switch - G/M/R
TMS Down	Flare Dispense Button - Depress	LHG STORE/Update Switch - STORE/Center
DMS R/D/L/U	FCR Scan Size Switch - R/D/L/U	RHG FCR Scan Size Switch - Wide/Medium/Narrow/Zoom
	George AI Helper - R/D/L/U
CMS R/D/L/U	Force Trim/Hold Mode Switch - R/D/L/U	LHG TADS FOV Switch - Wide/Medium/Narrow/Zoom
Trim Hat R/D/L/U	FCR Mode Switch - R/D/L/U	LHG FCR Mode Switch - RMAP/ATM/TPM/GTM
CMS Depress	Emergency Jettison Switch - Depress	LHG Linear Motion Compensation (LMC) Button
Throttle
Ministick Depress	Cursor Enter - Depress	LHG Cursor Enter Trigger
Comms Hat Depress	RTS Rocker Switch - Down	RTS Rocker Switch - Down
Comms Hat Up	George AI Helper Interface - Show/Hide	George AI Helper Interface - Show/Hide
Comms Hat Forward	Reserved for SRS (Special Intercom Select & PTT)	Reserved for SRS (Special Intercom Select & PTT)
Comms Hat Down	Consent To Fire	RHG MTT Promote Switch - Fwd/Center
Comms Hat Aft	PTT/RTS Switch - RADIO/Left (call radio menu) On small delay (200ms) for SRS (PTT)	Reserved for SRS (PTT), small delay (200ms)
Coolie Hat U/R/D/L	Sight Select Switch - U/R/D/L	RHG Sight Select Switch - HMD/TADS/LINK/FCR
Air Brake Switch FWD/AFT	FCR Scan Switch - C (Continuous)/S (Single)	LHG FCR Scan Switch - C (Continuous)/S (Single)
Boat Switch FWD	Boresight/Polarity Switch - PLRT	LHG TADS Sensor Select Switch - TV
Boat Switch AFT	Stabilator Control Switch - Depress	LHG TADS Sensor Select Switch - FLIR
China Hat FWD/AFT	Symbology Select Switch - Up/Down	LHG Image AutoTrack/Offset Switch - IAT/OFS
Pinkie Switch FWD/AFT	PLT NVS MODE Switch - NORM/OFF	PLT NVS MODE Switch - NORM/OFF
Landing Gear Warning Cancel	Master Warning Button	Master Warning Button
Flaps UP/DOWN	Stabilator Control Switch - ND/NU	RHG Laser Tracker Mode (LT) Switch - A (Automatic)/O (Off)
RDR ALT ARM	Emergency Jettison Guard - OPEN	—
EAC ARM	EMERG HYD Pushbutton - ON/OFF	Modifier for flight controls. Also used with the C-key to request controls.
Autopilot Engage/Disengage	A/S Pushbutton	RHG C-Scope Button
Eng Oper switches L/R D/U	No.1/2 Engine Start Switch - IGN ORIDE/START	—

Edited January 30, 2023 by FalcoGer

[marinesrule1980]

Lots of good info. Thanks. It looks like I need to dump my x52 pro (gladly) and go with the Virpil set up Toge posted about. I'm getting serious into the Apache so it's time to get some good stuff to run it. 

BTW: It's easier to auto rotate land in a real heli than in these sim heli's. 

[cobrabase]

Does anyone know the location where a thrustmaster warthog profile matching the Chuck's guide can be found?