Pulling too much AoA during dogfight

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Like the F-14, it is very easy to pull too many AoA and loses energy during dogfight. And then get out turned by the AI. I learn to "feel" how not to do so with the Turkey, but what could I do to be the same with the Viper? From my little experience, this is no Hornet, I really cannot point to anywhere I want to.

[skywalker22]

Guns only: if possible try to force a two circle fight, try to keep your speed above 400 and up to 430 knots as much as possible. If it goes bellow, pull less, if if goes above you can pull some more. Also check always the G number, do not exceed 8.5Gs for a constant pull, else you bleed speed and you will also get blackouts. Not easy to master.

In case of Fox-2 engagement, all these does not apply. When missiles are in game, you and everyone else is forced to do a one circle fight, and pull as much as you can, and as slow (air speed) as you can. The point is, to point your nose as soon as possible towards the bandit.

Edited February 21, 2023 by skywalker22

[chaos]

See above regarding speed...  but also keep an eye on your AOA indexer. A green donut is great... if it turns to a red chevron it is time to start pulling less on the stick. Brief "excursions" are fine but do not prolong pulling stick with a red AOA indexer.

Edited January 17, 2023 by chaos

[Theodore42]

I'll give you some dos and don'ts.

Viper wins acceleration from 300-400 knots, so you really want to use that range unless winning the rate fight is easy. Sure the Viper accelerates great above that but so do most other aircraft.

The Viper is very powerful when the pitch is a little below the horizon, probably 5-20 degrees down. Turning in that range is called a slice and it is a very powerful maneuver for the Viper.

Unloading to under 1G ASAP (stick forward) with the nose 5-20 degrees under the horizon accelerates you like crazy. 10 degrees down and 0.5 G at 300 knots will get you to 400knots in a couple seconds. This is the check and extend and is very powerful for the Viper. This maneuver is mostly about reducing the induced drag by reducing AoA so it is less effective above about 400. Very good at 300 though.

 

Don't turn with the nose above the horizon unless you need to slow down to make turning room. This is a high yo-yo and a very common maneuver for the Viper. A typical error is to bring the nose too far above the horizon causing undue speed loss. As long as you finish this maneuver above 300 knots with the nose below the horizon then you can check and extend to get back your speed. The usual thing that happens after a hi yo-yo in the Viper is a low yo-yo (acceleration maneuver).

Out of plane maneuvering is typical for energy fighters like the Viper. If you want to go over the top, do it EXACTLY vertically. Angles fighters like the Hornet and Eagle won't follow you unless they have energy on you, in which case you should have done a check and extend first. Do not accelerate while going vertically but try to sustain your speed as long as possible. In the vertical, roll to whatever angle you want against the target in their turn (aim for a point above and behind them). Make sure you account for enough radius in the turning circle from the target because you are going to come down on them hard and fast and don't want to waste speed trying to get turning room on them. In other words, make sure you don't end up going too fast to turn in behind them.

250 at the apex is what you're aiming for and probably 230 knots at the apex would be the minimum. Much slower than that and you should have started the over the top faster or spent less time in the vertical. (The Viper typically loses pointing straight up vs things with two engines).

This sets you up for a check and extend as your nose falls 5-20 degrees below the horizon. Don't go too fast though, else you will waste altitude. 300-330 is plenty fast here and is the minimum turn radius for the Viper so it will preserve your altitude as you pull through the vertical and away from the earth. You have the option to check and extend again as you're coming out of the loop 5-20 degrees below the horizon.

If you are going, for example, 450 knots and you want to do an instantaneous turn into the targets turn circle, bleed off speed at a rate that will leave you at around 330 when you are closest to them. (330 is the minimum radius turn speed for the Viper.)

When coming close to the target SUSTAIN 330 knots to get behind, even if the target begins to extend away in his turn circle (your line of sight is moving up your canopy). As long as you are directly behind the target spatially (low aspect angle), the increasing HCA (Heading Course Angle, aka angle off) isn't a big deal because you can just check and extend to a lag pursuit.

Practice maintaining full pitch deflection at 330 with a really deep slice but be careful not to let the nose get too low, it takes a lot of energy and time to get back up.

A split-s is a good maneuver for the Viper at 330 (minimum turn radius). Have a nice check and extend before you come out of it.

You will notice the Viper is very powerful 5-20 degrees below the horizon but most angle fighters like to climb in an oblique maneuver (climbing turn). Don't follow them into this as you will eventually lose. It is best to allow a vertical separation. A quick check and extend can get you over 500 knots fast while they're still at corner speed and you can do a hi yo-yo or even an over the top to get back on them, with energy. This might surprise them because they think they're beating you due to the expanding vertical distance and your check and extends are gaining them angles. If they're inexperienced they are probably getting too slow because it looks to them like they're beating you and they get excited and start pulling too many Gs.

For an IR fight you do want to get into a 1 circle (I prefer the term nose to nose) but get out of the flat scissors asap by converting it to a rolling scissors. The airplane at the top is going slowest and the airplane at the bottom is going fastest and you want to get behind them. I'll let you figure that one out but don't forget about check and extend. If the target gets an angle on you pop flares and disengage the afterburner even before they Fox2 you. Hopefully you are going well over 400+ knots at that point.

I think this covers all the Viper's most obvious strengths and weaknesses that I've noticed. Obviously do the don'ts if you have energy on the target but you might be surprised at how much doing the don'ts will ruin your energy management. I didn't really talk about aspect angle but you should be able to work it out with the info I've given. BTW, turn circle is the geometry of an aircraft's sustained turn and turning room is the ability to turn into their turn circle (get behind them).

[Glide]

One thing that I am trying is a Pitch curve of 15 (or more) with my Virpil Constellation Alpha.  With my stick it is very easy to pull too much AOA and this bleeds airspeed.  Interesting test: roll into a bank, pull back on the stick and give full rudder deflection.  Then let the stick back out util the airspeed starts to to slowly climb but keep holding the bank.  I'm using a lot of rudder in my turning fights now.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

These are real gold. Thanks everyone! All of them are solutions!

[SickSidewinder9]

On 1/17/2023 at 12:57 AM, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

Like the F-14, it is very easy to pull too many AoA and loses energy during dogfight. And then get out turned by the AI. I learn to "feel" how not to do so with the Turkey, but what could I do to be the same with the Viper? From my little experience, this is no Hornet, I really cannot point to anywhere I want to.

If you glance back at the HUD, you can use the AoA indexer next to it.  Donut good, up arrow pointing down bad.

[SickSidewinder9]

Here is what I'm referencing:

 

[silverdevil]

On 1/17/2023 at 4:06 AM, chaos said:

See above regarding speed...  but also keep an eye on your AOA indexer. A green donut is great... if it turns to a red chevron it is time to start pulling less on the stick. Brief "excursions" are fine but do not prolong pulling stick with a red AOA indexer.

 

i read this post a way back and started noticing the donut. damned if it doesn't work. i appreciate the little tip. i used to only use the donut when landing.

[BuzzU]

20 hours ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

Here is what I'm referencing:

 

That was really interesting. I love watching real pilots fly in DCS.

He's using a head tracker but I don't see anything. What is he using?

[gavagai]

Lots of good tips in this thread, not much I can add for tactics.

What I will say is that the Viper is probably the most challenging 4th gen jet to use for guns-only BFM in DCS.  The Hornet, Eagle and Mirage are much more forgiving and, with equal pilots, are going to out rate the F16 or beat it in a one-circle.

You can't make much use of your best asset, the 9g turn, because you'll blackout in seconds in this game.  It's a great module, but a poor choice for learning how to dogfight because of its exacting demands for energy management.

[SickSidewinder9]

On 1/28/2023 at 6:23 AM, gavagai said:

Lots of good tips in this thread, not much I can add for tactics.

What I will say is that the Viper is probably the most challenging 4th gen jet to use for guns-only BFM in DCS.  The Hornet, Eagle and Mirage are much more forgiving and, with equal pilots, are going to out rate the F16 or beat it in a one-circle.

You can't make much use of your best asset, the 9g turn, because you'll blackout in seconds in this game.  It's a great module, but a poor choice for learning how to dogfight because of its exacting demands for energy management.

Keeping speed up is key.  So is not pulling all the G's all at once.  But yeah, DCS does seem to default to blacking out after 8.5 no matter what.  IRL, the pilot training and ergonomics (the leaned back seat) might help with this, but idk.  I think even most well trained and experience pilots get their asses kicked by a steady 9G.  That is brutal.

On 1/27/2023 at 3:47 PM, BuzzU said:

That was really interesting. I love watching real pilots fly in DCS.

He's using a head tracker but I don't see anything. What is he using?

I thought he mentioned some kind of eye tracker.  Actually, he may not have and I may have asked on YouTube, and I'll see if he replied.

EDIT: nope, no idea

Edited January 29, 2023 by SickSidewinder9

[Theodore42]

imo if you're spending a lot of time pulling 8Gs then you're going "too fast." not really, but you need to turn that speed into an advantage. Sure your turn rate is awesome when pulling 9Gs at 440kCAS but your turn radius is terrible. You will never get turning room on an angles fighter in that situation.

The highest turn rate for the Viper is maximum pitch deflection at 330 knots. At SL this is only going to be a little over 7Gs and less the higher you go. It is also really close to the minimum turn radius for the Viper, a LOT smaller than 9Gs at 440. Every Viper pilot should practice at least a minute or two in a slice sustaining 330kCAS with maximum pitch deflection to see what it is like. I bet you lose less altitude than you think.

Use this in a fight with an angles fighter: Get into a 2 circle (nose to tail) fight. Time your speed such that you are going 330kCAS when you pass the target's 3-9 line. Do this with a hi yo-yo, loaded roll, AB reduction, fan the brakes, any BFM that slows you down and gives you a geometric advantage, or all of the above. Use a maximum deflection slice to sustain 330kCAS until you pass behind the target. Then you can pitch forward to under 1G to reduce induced lag and accelerate. Because the slice at 330kCAS has a high turn rate and small turn radius you will be close to the target. Therefore the acceleration will zoom you to behind the target (speed will help reduce the angles as long as you're close enough). Then you can use that speed to do whatever BFM you want because you'll have energy on the angles fighter in that situation. It only takes a second to go from 440 to 500 if you want even more speed to do some even crazier BFM. Maybe an Immelmann is in the cards in that situation. THIS is when you want to use just a few seconds of 8-9Gs to utterly terrify your target. If you're always going 440 then you will never be able to use your speed in this way because the distances will be too great.

(For example, if you're at an airshow and an F-16 does a flyby at 500 knots 300 feet above the runway, its aspect to you will go form 90 degrees right to 90 degrees left in a few seconds. But if an F-16 flies by at 500 knots 10,000ft above the runway then the aspect will take minutes to go from 90 degrees left to 90 degrees right of you.)

I can't help it, I'm going to shamelessly plug my youTube channel: (My voice is gravelly because I'm recovering from that cold everyone is getting)

 

[SickSidewinder9]

Might have to try that with the F-5.  That thing is hard to kill when you're out of missiles.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

I some how manage to stay over 410mph in F-14B and F/A-18C with better success rate. Most of the time, the (veteran) AI is stuck with low energy, unless I am not careful and drop too much speed, it cannot even land a hit. All I need to practice now is how to make use of the new earned energy to score a gun kill, rather than manoeuvrer one.  Boom-and-zoon does not work unless the enemy is a Spitfire IX.

Still need a lot of work to be done one the Viper. It is as fun to fly in like the above, but need more time to get to know it.

All are great tips, please keep them coming. Kudo!

[Glide]

Just want to add to my experiments with curves.  I have a full set of Virpil HOTAS and rudders, and I put a curve of 15 on pitch, roll, and rudder.  IMHO, I am getting performance equal to or better than the Hornet with this setup.  This made a huge difference pulling turns and maintaining speed.

curves.trk

[wilbur81]

On 1/29/2023 at 1:50 PM, SickSidewinder9 said:

  I think even most well trained and experience pilots get their asses kicked by a steady 9G.  That is brutal.

 

I think this is a very underestimated reality in the real world, and you're correct. There are a fair number of YT videos of real world Vipers (HUD tape footage) performing BFM... you will find very few (I've never found one myself) where the max G exceeds 7g or the airspeed exceed 350 kts. Here's one example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOa9eWgFllE. Another example from Defensive BFM with telemetry data: https://youtu.be/nEOnP7zpcXs?t=199. Neither pilot breaks 7g in either engagement. Obviously loadout/FLCS CAS mode will have an effect on all this.

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by wilbur81

[SickSidewinder9]

13 minutes ago, gortex said:

Best instantaneous turn rate for DCS F-16 is 393 knots CAS, about 24 deg/s (compare to 30 deg/s for Hornet and Mirage 2000).  F-16 STR and minimum sustained radius is also inferior.  You should lose every time guns-only against one of those opponents unless the pilot is unskilled.

These remarks are only drawn from DCS performance and are not intended to have any relation to real-world performance.

 

Against a hornet (at least when I did some experimenting with the ai before the big ai update) the Viper has the speed advantage and thrust to weight advantage.  Meaning, if you take the Hornet vertical, you can get a kill shot.  No idea on the Mirage.
Do not go vertical against a Flanker.  Absolutely not.  No.  u r ded.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

I find the Fulcrum is about the same in terms of going vertical

[Glide]

20 hours ago, gortex said:

I can one circle with the Viper and beat the AI

With an Ace level SU-27 guns only?  The Migs aren't so tough, but the SU-27 is a beast to catch.  It's good training.  No radar locking of course.  I find the AI are more agressive if you don't give them missiles, and be sure they have enough fuel to finish the fight.

[Glide]

20 hours ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

No idea on the Mirage

Watched a great video about the Giraffe move and the Mirage.  Works well in Viper too, but right now the Afterburner is too weak in the Viper FM.  Needs some oompf to keep going vertical without losing energy.  I didn't mean to suggest the Viper can out turn the Hornet; I meant the flight models are coming together performance-wise. 

[SickSidewinder9]

On 2/2/2023 at 11:50 AM, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

I find the Fulcrum is about the same in terms of going vertical

I think you're right.  Even though the Fulcrum is twin engined and twin tailed, it's closest Western analogue is probably an early model F-16.

[Theodore42]

On 2/2/2023 at 12:05 PM, gortex said:

Best instantaneous turn rate for DCS F-16 is 393 knots CAS, about 24 deg/s (compare to 30 deg/s for Hornet and Mirage 2000).  F-16 STR and minimum sustained radius is also inferior.

Yes, the thing I did RIGHT after posting was go to the Hornet forum where someone had posted an EM chart of the Viper suggesting its best instantaneous turn rate is 401kCAS. But when I jumped in and tested it out it seems like the turn rate is faster but due to the high turn radius it doesn't seem to help in terms of turning room.

On 2/2/2023 at 12:05 PM, gortex said:

You should lose every time guns-only against one of those opponents unless the pilot is unskilled.

No that was the whole point of my post, and every post I've ever made about dogfighting with the Viper on this forum. The Viper is an energy fighter; you fly it differently than a low wing loaded fighter (aka angle fighter). Read in "Fighter Combat" by Shaw on low wing loaded vs high thrust-to-weight fighters. It is 30 pages of commentary on how to fly something like the Viper vs an angles fighter like the Hornet or Mirage 2000.

My post says how to utilize the Viper best for these tactics mentioned in Shaw. You conclude "You should lose every time guns-only against one of those opponents unless the pilot is unskilled" by judging the F-16 as an angles fighter against actual angles fighters. Of course the Viper is bad when you fly it wrong.

On 2/2/2023 at 12:30 PM, gortex said:

Combat vs the AI is meaningless. I can one circle with the Viper and beat the AI.  You are right that F-16 vertical performance is superior to the Hornet though.  That is the one bright point.

The OP is literally asking about how to fight vs the AI. And where are your suggestions? Or criticisms of the tactics I suggest? I don't claim to know the exact, correct method which is why I just threw up a list of dos and don'ts. Do you disagree with any of the dos or don'ts? Or have any to add? Of course not, you don't even understand that there are different tactics to be utilized by a thrust-to-weight fighter rather than an angles fighter. Don't feel bad, it's really rare to find someone that understands it. That's why I make so many extensive posts on the subject.

Here is the EM chart document that was posted on the Hornet forum. Note on page 7 "Relative Turn/Climb Tradeoff" where the F-16 is. That chart means unloaded acceleration in the F-16 beats everything. See how often I bring up acceleration maneuvers in my post? This makes ME RIGHT and YOU WRONG 

Subsonic EM Diagrams DCS.pdf

[Aquorys]

On 2/5/2023 at 8:05 PM, Theodore42 said:

The OP is literally asking about how to fight vs the AI. And where are your suggestions? Or criticisms of the tactics I suggest?

Well, if you're asking for it... in the video you posted you kind of flew that bird like an angles fighter around 2:15, just trying to keep it pointed straight towards the target, instead of establishing a flight path that would take you to an advantageous position (like a displacement roll or high yo-yo), which is why you overshot around 2:30. Regarding the general tactics you suggested, I flew a couple fights against an F-15 ace AI to see whether I would actually do differently what I thought I would do differently, and I don't remember ever using the airbrake to intentionally slow down to ~330. I would rather use that energy to gain altitude, so I can either use that to accelerate later, or to use the additional vertical space for maneuvering.

 

 

[Pavlin_33]

On 1/17/2023 at 9:55 AM, skywalker22 said:

...

In case of Fox-2 engagement, all these does not apply. When missiles are in game, you and everyone else is forced to do a one circle fight, and pull as much as you can, and as slow (air speed) as you can. The point is, to point your nose as soon as possible towards the bandit.

 

This is simply not true. Even with missiles involved, being the first one to point the nose on the enemy will depend on your state. In a one-circle fight it will be the fighter with the smaller radius of turn and in a two-circle fight it will be the fighter with a higher turn rate. That's why one-cirlce (nose to nose) fight is called "radius" fight and two-circle (nose to tail) is called "rate" fight. Reason for this is simple: geometry.
To illustrate this I've created a rudimentary animation here: https://jsfiddle.net/0f7r61me/2/

Blue fighter has double the turn rate of the red one, while the red fighter has half the turn circle. From the animation, it's clear who gets the first shot.