F-15E SECONDARY Air-to-Air Role

[Spurts]

In the terms of the FX Development Concept Paper (DCP), the F-15 is "Optimized for counter-air missions" operating as part of TAC. ... It is no surprise, therefore, to learn that the DCP calls for the F-15 to be "superior in air combat to any present or postulated Soviet fighters both in close-in, visual encounters and in stand-off or all-weather encounters."  According to the assessment, an improved F-4E with new wings and engines was not considered able to meet FX objectives.

The performance requirements embodies in the FX Request for Proposals were intended to equip the resulting fighter to better all existing and proposed Warsaw Pact opponents.  As of the late 1960s these were represented by the small, agile, MiG-21 ...(and -23 and -25 and Su-15)

At the same time some compromises had to be accepted, so that the USAF's original requirement for a maximum speed of Mach 2.7 at high altitudes, for example, was reduced to Mach 2.3 with a Mach 2.5 burst capability.  The higher speed not only would have prevented the use of a bubble canopy...

More generally, performance was to be a consequence of high thrust-to-weight and low wing-loading, which had been recognized as the fundamental elements in providing the desired degree of superiority in performance and agility.

By the time Boyd was assigned to the FX program in October 1966 he had already developed his theory of energy maneuverability... Thus the F-15s low wing loading and high thrust-to-weight ratio combine to make it exceptionally maneuverable. 

(In Israeli service) Combat is usually conducted at close quarters with infra-red homing missiles and, of course, the 20mm cannon, underlining the continuing requirement for the classic dogfighting type of aircraft.

Excerpts from The Great Book of Modern Warplanes F-15 chapters written by Michael J. Gething and published in 1987.

Can we put to bed that the Eagle was not designed with close fighting in mind?  As if the 900+ round ammo drum and 4 Sidewinder stations didn't already cover that.

 

 

 

[Nahen]

If Sidewinder's shooting from a distance of 7-8 miles is a maneuvering combat... Well, 10-15 kilometers for me is not a maneuvering combat. Even more so when you have 10-20 thousand feet of advantage of height ... 
This is how look 80-90% of kills by F-15 with use Sidewinders...

 

By the way, in DCS you can fire the Sidewinder M from a distance of about 20 miles and hit successfully.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Nahen

[shagrat]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Nahen:

If Sidewinder's shooting from a distance of 7-8 miles is a maneuvering combat... Well, 10-15 kilometers for me is not a maneuvering combat. Even more so when you have 10-20 thousand feet of advantage of height ... 
This is how look 80-90% of kills by F-15 with use Sidewinders...

 

By the way, in DCS you can fire the Sidewinder M from a distance of about 20 miles and hit successfully.

 

(...)"the DCP calls for the F-15 to be "superior in air combat to any present or postulated Soviet fighters both in close-in, visual encounters and in stand-off or all-weather encounters."(...)

Directly from the "Development Concept Paper".

What was your point again?

[Horns]

5 hours ago, Nahen said:

If Sidewinder's shooting from a distance of 7-8 miles is a maneuvering combat... Well, 10-15 kilometers for me is not a maneuvering combat. Even more so when you have 10-20 thousand feet of advantage of height ... 
This is how look 80-90% of kills by F-15 with use Sidewinders...

 

By the way, in DCS you can fire the Sidewinder M from a distance of about 20 miles and hit successfully.

 

I guess everyone needed to be clearer in their instructions: Look at the minimum and maximum launch distance on sidewinders. Unless you have more specific information (which at this point you'd need to provide a reference for), all you can say is that sidewinder shots happened between these distances. What's important is the *definition* of maneuvering combat, your opinions have nothing to do with it. Don't try to bring up how far an AIM-9 can be used in DCS, you know the conversation was about the 104 real-world kills.

You tried to say that few of the F-15's air-to-air victories were in maneuvering combat but declined to give any numbers. When one makes an argument, it's up to them to prove it, otherwise it is invalid. It's not up to anyone else to prove you wrong until you provide actual hard data that appears to prove your point. Since then you've claimed to not have said things you very clearly said and tried everything possible to throw shade - without sighting hard evidence - when others contributed facts. I want to believe you're just tilted because of the insults you say you have copped in PvP but you're just embarrassing yourself now and you obviously aren't arguing in good faith, in fact this is getting pretty close to trolling. Either provide some facts or be satisfied you've expressed your opinion and leave it at that.

[JB3DG]

I highly doubt anyone has ever made a successful AIM-9 shot from 7-8nm away, especially with earlier AIM-9 versions. That range is ASRAAM territory.

[GGTharos]

Technically the AIM-9L/M can be launched from 10nm away in head-on situations at high altitude and speed.   Of course, the target has to cooperate as well - it needs to be nice and hot.

[Nahen]

5 hours ago, JB3DG said:

I highly doubt anyone has ever made a successful AIM-9 shot from 7-8nm away, especially with earlier AIM-9 versions. That range is ASRAAM territory.

Instead of doubting, read the pilots' reports... e.g. 493 Grim Reapers from MiG-29 shootdowns over former Yugoslavia...

 

But of course you can also listen to theoreticians from this forum...

Edited February 24, 2023 by Nahen

[Alpha]

All four of those were Aim-120s. https://theaviationgeekclub.com/f-15-vs-mig-29-the-493rd-fs-mig-kills-scored-during-operation-allied-force/

But that´s just one of the many mistakes and misconceptions about Air Combat you´ve shown in this thread (as mentioned by a lot of people here).

[Nahen]

I meant the distances at which they tried to launch the Sidewinders. In two cases before the AiM-120 hit. Hwang attempted to launch the Sidewinders twice from about 10 miles away. Did I say something about MiGs being shot down by Sidewinders? In fact, no one waits until the target is at 2 miles. Only sitting in an armchair in front of the computer, this is how your fights look like - beer / cola in hand, calculation of when it's best to launch a projectile - if it fails, I'll try again. Why the effectiveness of A-A rounds is calculated around 60-70% Not at all because of their defects and design, because manufacturers for at least 20-30 years assume the effectiveness of Sidewinders of the latest versions or AMRAAMs at the level of 80-85%.
Very often, projectiles are fired "beyond" the ideal conditions to reach the targetfor both medium and short range missiles. 
As for hits from 7-9 miles with the Sidewinders, Python here have been such hits in both the Israeli and Iraq wars.

 

On fast search - Sidewinders fired from 5-6 miles (10 km)

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Nahen

[Kempleja]

41 minutes ago, Nahen said:

Did I say something about MiGs being shot down by Sidewinders?

Man, you seem to have very short memory.  Just about an hour earlier you replied to a question about "successful AIM-9 shot from 7-8nm away" and suggested reading "Mig-29 shootdowns over former Yugoslavia", which turned out to be bollocks, again. Are you on a mission to say something absurd every time you post?

[Alpha]

Nahen, Dude, piling even moire BS on top of BS just makes it more emberrassing for you. 

"I meant.." - yeah, this whole thread you´re proven wrong by various people on a bunch of wild theories and then you try the "...but I meant..."-thing.

 

Hwang had shot his Amraam and was still supporting it (not quite as intended as HDTWS isn´t the proper mode for that, but anyway) while running a front Aspect Intercept at close range and high Vc. That´s why he tried to uncage the Sidewinder. But as he got no tone this just showed that it wasn´t employable - another Amraam-kill, end of story. 

 

That whole "2nm", armchair-song and shots beyond "ideal conditions" is pure BS. There´s plenty of stuff going on as to when and what mssile is employed in which way. It´s got nothing to do with set amount of miles and they are not at all shot "beyond ideal conditions". Usually they aren´t even launched at maximum range. 

 

As GGTharos said - there are scenarios where one can shoot Fox2 at pretty big ranges. But that´s not the point.

 

Bottom Line with as per this thread: The (light grey) Eagle is a very good Air-Air Platform, be it BVR or at the merge. Their crews are very good as well and highly proficient in that business. The main Weapon is the Amraam whenever available and not min-ranged. The Mudhen should be pretty close to their abilities in BVR and way less maneuverable at the merge (which is why they wouldn´t go there when given the choice - and employ solid ACM when being forced to it). 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Alpha

[Lima29]

1 hour ago, Nahen said:

Hwang attempted to launch the Sidewinders twice from about 10 miles away.

Really??!! Read the description of the event …. it says Hwang closed to 7-8 miles, called tally, closed to 5 miles and tried twice to uncage the Sidewinders but couldn’t get “tone”! 
 

When @JB3DG said he doubted anyone had made a successful Sidewinder shot at 7-8 miles, you tried to prove him wrong by replying referencing an incident where you claim that someone made two unsuccessful attempts at 10 miles …. when in fact, in the incident you reference, the pilot was unable to get “tone” around 5 miles away from target!!

You’ve really just supported his stance!

Are you really surprised that people don’t believe or respect things you say on here? 

[Horns]

Dunning-Kruger Effect

[Jojothebox]

On 2/18/2023 at 9:45 AM, Dannyvandelft said:

Just did a quick Google, the Phoenix had an operational range of 100nm. The AMRAAM C 57nm. Even the new D has an operational range of 87nm. So at equal altitude, speed, etc. The Tomcat has a huge advantage of nearly double the range.

That's IRL of course. How well the module will do, we'll have to wait and see.

The big advantage in the SE will be situational awareness.

An F-14D vs the F-15E would draw that level again since the D has link16 and the same radar.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

so three things to start. the amraam fired from head on at 60 miles will travel less than sixty miles unless the target turns cold. i’ve easily achieved 60 mile shots on targets with the F-16 at less than m 1.4 below 45000. secondly. the F-15E has a much better radar than the F-14D let alone the F-14B which is what it would be fighting in game. your claim that the F-14 can achieve 100nm kills is hysterical and ill informed. if the F-15E loaded for CAP engaged with an F-14B in game as i understand it now the F-15 would be victorious every time. the F-15E can easily climb above 53k in CAP load has better ECM better radar and a much more competent missile. aim-54’s go stupid so easily and are extremely easy to crank and avoid. 

[Jojothebox]

2 hours ago, Nahen said:

I meant the distances at which they tried to launch the Sidewinders. In two cases before the AiM-120 hit. Hwang attempted to launch the Sidewinders twice from about 10 miles away. Did I say something about MiGs being shot down by Sidewinders? In fact, no one waits until the target is at 2 miles. Only sitting in an armchair in front of the computer, this is how your fights look like - beer / cola in hand, calculation of when it's best to launch a projectile - if it fails, I'll try again. Why the effectiveness of A-A rounds is calculated around 60-70% Not at all because of their defects and design, because manufacturers for at least 20-30 years assume the effectiveness of Sidewinders of the latest versions or AMRAAMs at the level of 80-85%.
Very often, projectiles are fired "beyond" the ideal conditions to reach the targetfor both medium and short range missiles. 
As for hits from 7-9 miles with the Sidewinders, there have been such hits in both the Israeli and Iraq wars.

 

On fast search - Sidewinders fired from 5-6 miles (10 km)

 

 

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/f-15-vs-mig-29-the-493rd-fs-mig-kills-scored-during-operation-allied-force/amp/ same as before. no mention of aim-9 sidewinders. all kills in f-15C’s. as for your video the calls heard from AWACS were for “threat” meaning new contact. that missile was launched within launch parameters and you can see the explosion in the gun cam meaning it was well within five miles at the time of launch. you again give no source with valid numbers and as for the “israeli war” israel does not use older aim 9’s. they were given x’s but use their own missiles. you can not actually prove any of your claims @Kemplejais right you need to stop 

[dedlike.]

isnt nahen the same guy who was arguing that the F15 is far better than the Eurofighter in BVR in the other forumpost?

 

edit: ye found it 

looks like he just loves to argue 

Edited February 24, 2023 by dedlike.

[Beirut]

1 hour ago, dedlike. said:

isnt nahen the same guy who was arguing that the F15 is far better than the Eurofighter in BVR in the other forumpost?

 

looks like he just loves to argue 

 

 

I like Nahen.  

[Jojothebox]

17 minutes ago, Beirut said:

 

I like Nahen.  

i mean like who you like but he doesnt know what hes talking about when it comes too the game or irl

[Tvrdi]

Guys what do you think. How will our F15E stand in close turning dogfights? Compared to F16 ad F18? Im asking only and only about DCS planes, not in RL. Im not interested in figures from RL because obviously we are not flying those in the sim. What I know is that F15E would be fast, would be good for long to medium AtoA engagements, but what about close dogfights? Sustained turns? One cirlce turn? Etc.

Why Im asking this? Because the E variant wasnt built solely for air dominance, the C was made for that. The fact is that AtoA is still the most popular amongst any flight sim community Im affraid there will be some disappointed preordering dudes who are not going to do AtG jobs often, if ever.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Tvrdi

[Horns]

1 hour ago, Tvrdi said:

Guys what do you think. How will our F15E stand in close turning dogfights? Compared to F16 ad F18? Im asking only and only about DCS planes, not in RL. Im not interested in figures from RL because obviously we are not flying those in the sim. What I know is that F15E would be fast, would be good for long to medium AtoA engagements, but what about close dogfights? Sustained turns? One cirlce turn? Etc.

Why Im asking this? Because the E variant wasnt built solely for air dominance, the C was made for that. The fact is that AtoA is still the most popular amongst any flight sim community Im affraid there will be some disappointed preordering dudes who are not going to do AtG jobs often, if ever.

 

I don't think anyone has much idea yet of how it will perform in the sim per se, just because we haven't had our hands on it, so I think IRL is the only reference we have right now. Was there anything specific you wanted to know, on top of what's been discussed earlier in this thread?

Of course, if people do have information on the sim performance of the upcoming module, please correct me...

I will make one prediction: If a F-15E driver maximizes their speed and altitude (as advocated by someone earlier in this thread) and then tries to 1C a Hornet at 15Kft, they should probably lube up beforehand... 

Edited February 25, 2023 by Horns
Added prediction

[draconus]

5 hours ago, Tvrdi said:

Im asking only and only about DCS planes, not in RL. Im not interested in figures from RL because obviously we are not flying those in the sim.

We're flying their best virtual representation for PC simulation. Since SE is not there yet and you're not interested in RL SE either what kind of fantasy are you interested in?

[Tvrdi]

14 hours ago, draconus said:

We're flying their best virtual representation for PC simulation. Since SE is not there yet and you're not interested in RL SE either what kind of fantasy are you interested in?

You just like to complicate things right? Not that Im not interested in RL figures but thats pointless here since in DCS we have different situation with current modules compared to RL figures of those planes. Dont make me explaning everything (discussed to death already) because I would be bashed by die hard fans just like I was bashed in some past sims Ive been playing during my super long sim career (simming since 90s).

So my question was. How will DCS F15E MODULE compare in close fights (also turning fights) vs F16 and F18 DCS MODULES. I know we cant know for sure as it isnt relaeased yet, but I was just asking the simple innocent question. Nothing deep behind it. If you cant answer just type "I dont know". That would be ok too.

Hint: maybe a current F15C (even tohugh its FC3 module) can be a comparing guideline.

cheers

Edited February 26, 2023 by Tvrdi

[GGTharos]

3 hours ago, Tvrdi said:

You just like to complicate things right? Not that Im not interested in RL figures but thats pointless here since in DCS we have different situation with current modules compared to RL figures of those planes. Dont make me explaning everything (discussed to death already) because I would be bashed by die hard fans just like I was bashed in some past sims Ive been playing during my super long sim career (simming since 90s).

He gave you the right answer.

3 hours ago, Tvrdi said:

So my question was. How will DCS F15E MODULE compare in close fights (also turning fights) vs F16 and F18 DCS MODULES. I know we cant know for sure as it isnt relaeased yet, but I was just asking the simple innocent question. Nothing deep behind it. If you cant answer just type "I dont know". That would be ok too.

Why would you ask a question you know the answer to?

3 hours ago, Tvrdi said:

Hint: maybe a current F15C (even tohugh its FC3 module) can be a comparing guideline.

Hint:  The F-15C module follows the -1/IRL parameters for performance quite closely.   It's also not an F-15E, therefore

Hint:  No it isn't a good comparing guideline, but

Hint:  There's an F-15E -1 out there, and a -34 as well but you'd have to take those with a grain of salt as well, since they don't represent actual F-15E testing (ie. they actually, IRL, did what you suggested, and that resulted in aircraft losses)

Edited February 26, 2023 by GGTharos

[shagrat]

Am 25.2.2023 um 15:27 schrieb Tvrdi:

Because the E variant wasnt built solely for air dominance

The F-15E Strike(!) Eagle was intended to replace the F-111 and already had the advantages of the F-15C airframe, thus a good maneuverability. Yet, it's not an air dominance fighter, like the original design of the "C". It should perform well enough to defend itself and force its way through to a target, but the turn performance in close quarters, should be worse than the "C". That doesn't mean it will be bad, just not as good as the "C" and definitely worse than the F-16C or F/A-18C.

For me personally it's perfect, as it combines Air-to-Ground (btw. very popular with the singleplayer and PvE customers) with great sensors, multiple modern weapons, has the legs to do a deep strike and on top of all that, the teeth to defend itself properly... Only disadvantage, it can't land on a carrier.

[Kev2go]

On 2/18/2023 at 8:56 AM, Dannyvandelft said:

It has a long range radar, but it's still limited to it's missiles range. So at BVR it's at a disadvantage to say a Tomcat, that can fire a Phoenix long before the SE can fire an AMRAAM. Same with any other longer range missile capable aircraft. Especially ones that are more maneuverable. The SE is a bomb truck that can self escort, but don't expect it to be a PVP king. It can't reach Tomcats at range, and it can't out maneuver Tomcats, 16's, 18's, Su-27, MiG-29 etc in ACM. It's not a 15C.



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

 

Theres more to radars than just their detection ranges.  Even if Razbams radar detection estimates end up having worse detection ranges than a AWg9,  Strike eagle pilots using that Apg70 won't have to have to deal with the limitations that tomcat crew have to with the vintage AWG9 radar system, even if they have longer reach on paper with that phoenix. ITs  easier to trash a  radar lock/track that only operates in HPRF in its PD mode ( no MPRF)  than something in the class of the APG68/70/73.  SO Apg70 can be expected to have all the nice features Hornet and Viper Drivers enjoy with thier  more modern radars in a2a but without having low detection ranges as those smaller radar sets.

 Plus will have better SA when Link 16 gets added ( not EA feature IRRC) . SO Id expect F15E to still be serious threat in BVR to not be underestimated. as for its dogfight performance that remains to be seen as some say its not much worse than a F15C due these models having the beefier 229 engines to compensate for weight gain Its close combat capability also will depends whether it gets aim9x further in development or not. 

 

yeah the SE is a strike aircraft,  but of course people will go do A2A in the SE because it can. and in part because no FF F15C.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Kev2go