How do you defeat R-77 in the Viper?

[Rongor]

So far the only method seems to stay out of firing range (obviously). Yet what would you recommend to do when the missile is coming for you? Neither maneuvering nor CM did yield any success for me so far...

[VarZat]

Practice the notch. A good technique i found is pitching straight down (vertical notch) and then coming wings level in the notch. Takes some practice to get right though, and you want to drop chaff during this

[Rongor]

So there is no chance I can keep my lock on him I guess.

I should turn inverted before pitching down I guess?

[Furiz]

3 minutes ago, Rongor said:

I should turn inverted before pitching down I guess?

Ask Pete Mitchell what he thinks about negative G

[Rongor]

so like this? (actually worked, but no idea if its due notching)

 

 

 

[Glide]

I don't expect to defeat the missiles with only chaff and flares.  I usually turn and run with full AB.  They usually fire at long range, so you have plenty of time to run out their fuel.

[Pavlin_33]

6 hours ago, Rongor said:

so like this? (actually worked, but no idea if its due notching)

 

The 77 has an old API, so basically what you did there takes the best advantage of it. You put it on your 3-9 line and made a rapid altitude change. Notice how it turns down below the ground to intercept you. Not sure why it turned parallel though, must have lost track or something,

[okopanja]

6 minutes ago, Pavlin_33 said:

The 77 has an old API, so basically what you did there takes the best advantage of it. You put it on your 3-9 line and made a rapid altitude change. Notice how it turns down below the ground to intercept you. Not sure why it turned parallel though, must have lost track or something,

It likely did not loose track, it lost energy, so the intercept point got calculated so far that it turned parallel.

IMHO: this is laughable performance of R-77, fired around 26km range. No respectable ARH missile wants to get associated with R-77 DCS.

[Pavlin_33]

10 minutes ago, okopanja said:

It likely did not loose track, it lost energy, so the intercept point got calculated so far that it turned parallel.

IMHO: this is laughable performance of R-77, fired around 26km range. No respectable ARH missile wants to get associated with R-77 DCS.

I'm no expert but it seems to me like a guidance bug. I would expect a missile to go kind of parallel close to a maneuvering target. With this kind of intercept it would take it Saturn V rocket motor to reach the Viper.

[TheBigTatanka]

If you like to survive, then fox-3 threats need to be kinnematically defeated. If you trespass, you stand a good chance of dying.

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk

[Aquorys]

21 hours ago, TheBigTatanka said:

If you like to survive, then fox-3 threats need to be kinnematically defeated. If you trespass, you stand a good chance of dying.

Yeah, at least in real life, that's more like it

On 2/23/2023 at 9:46 PM, okopanja said:

IMHO: this is laughable performance of R-77, fired around 26km range. No respectable ARH missile wants to get associated with R-77 DCS.

I mean, in general, if fighter pilots fought in real life how people fight in DCS, using the same attack geometries and missile defense tactics, it would be raining burning fighter jets

[darkman222]

4 hours ago, Aquorys said:

Yeah, at least in real life, that's more like it

I mean, in general, if fighter pilots fought in real life how people fight in DCS, using the same attack geometries and missile defense tactics, it would be raining burning fighter jets

Time for permadeath in DCS

 

Btw: In your video what the R77 does seems like a bug or a tracking error of the missile. Dont expect this to happen too often.

 

How to defeat the R77 missile is easy. Just stay away from it

 

How to kill the bandit who fired the R77 at you while staying alive is another question.

Quick guide:
-Try to get to the same altitude as the bandit. That helps to get a lock quickly.

-Climb up and fire your AIM120 when it in range

-Put the bandit on the right or left gimbal limit of your radar.

-Go nose down approx 30 degree, throttle to idle (helps to keep the distance, you dont want to run into his missile)

-wait until your Aim120 gets pitbull aka self guided ( the "A" with a number changes to "T" with a number)

-break lock, full throttle afterburner, dive to the deck and run away for a minute or more

-if bandit is dead: good. If not: recommit and repeat the steps above.

 

Disclaimer: Your RWR will yell at you that a missile has been fired. You can turn away of course at that point. But dont expect that you will ever be able to guide one of your missiles to the bandit that way. You have to stay committed to the fight to guide your own missile, then defeat the R77. Finding the sweetspot between the two is what you have to learn.

Edited February 25, 2023 by darkman222

[SickSidewinder9]

Keep the bandit in a crank.  As you close past max range, snap role so you're upside down and nose on to the bandit, and while inverted fire your fox 3.  You can even fire while you're nose is still above to horizon to give it some loft.  Split S and chaff and go back the way you came keeping the radar contact in the crank for a bit if you can.  100% of the time this works at least half the time.  The AI is often dumb and doesn't react till too late, even though if you saw that on a radar, you'd know you'd been shot at.
The split S pulls the incoming missile into denser air then going 90 degrees to it hard further bleeds its energy away as it tries to plot an intercept.  If it is still tracking you, keep doing descending 90 degree hard turns while chaffing.  This works well at low altitude against SAM's too.  Basically flying a big, fast rectangle.  Try to keep the missile turning 180 degrees and in dense air.
This maneuvering should help you shoot successfully while evading what may be shot at you.  Look up cranking and notching videos on YouTube.  Grim Reapers do a good cranking one.

Remember in the case of active radar missiles, you may have already started maneuvering too late when you get the warning.  That is why you should immediately be evading and chaffing after firing your own.

 

Now, if someone could tell me how to evade the Russian Fox-2's  >:[

Edited February 28, 2023 by SickSidewinder9

[darkman222]

9 hours ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

Now, if someone could tell me how to evade the Russian Fox-2's  >:[

It takes ages for the F16 engine to spin down. As I fight against human only:

Try to predict when the bandit is going to fire the Fox2. Throttle to idle or at least at mil power 5 seconds before your predictive senses tell you that he's gonna fire.

Have a good flare program, like 2 flares or more per second. And a quantity of 20 flares.

Point at the bandit, so the missile cant see your exhaust. Loaded barrel roll, flare and pray.

Edited February 28, 2023 by darkman222

[Aquorys]

4 hours ago, darkman222 said:

It takes ages for the F16 engine to spin down.

That's intentional. If you snap it to idle from a high power setting, the engine controls keep it above idle for a while, so it would spool up more quickly if you add power again

[WHOGX5]

On 2/23/2023 at 3:28 PM, Rongor said:

so like this? (actually worked, but no idea if its due notching)

 

 

 

So what you need to look at in this case is the displayed mach number of the missile. As you can see it bleeds off speed very quickly and the closer its speed gets to your airspeed, the longer its intercept is going to be. People are saying it's a tracking bug, which there are plenty of in DCS, but this is not one of those cases. With its low speed there is literally nothing else the missile can do but aim further an further ahead of you.

You also want to make use of the F-16's RWR. The good thing about our RWR is that it you can tell a threats closure rate by seeing whether it's moving towards or away from the center of your RWR. This means that for a missile like the R-77, if you see it stop closing in towards the center of your RWR, you know it's out of energy. This lets you recommit onto your target and keep pushing him, just making sure not to turn into the current path of the missile when turning hot again. If a R-77 goes active on you and it's still on the rim of your RWR after a good 5+ seconds you can expect it to have a very low energy state, basically being on the verge of defeated.

Also, it's great that you descend while notching as it's a whole lot more effective when you're below the missile in altitude. However, your turn into the notch is hard at first, but then kind of draws out quite a bit until you finally roll your wings level. You need to make the turn into the notch a whole lot quicker so you can get your wings level ASAP and see where the missile is in relation to your 3/9 o'clock on your RWR. This is so you can adjust your heading to get the missile as perfectly in the notch as possible, right on your 3/9 line. Once you're in the notch, you should dump a generous amount of chaff too. Dumping chaff when not "perfectly" in the notch will decrease their effectiveness.

You can tell whether the missile is notched on your RWR by how it's moving. If two objects are on an intercept course, their bearing rate will be zero, meaning that a missile that is on a perfect intercept course to you on your 3/9 line will stay perfectly on your 3 or 9 o'clock. If it gets notched however, you'll see its bearing rate increase and it starts moving back behind your 3/9 line, meaning it's not on a intercept course with you any longer. This is also an indication that you can start working that recommit to the target.

[dorianR666]

On 2/28/2023 at 10:27 AM, darkman222 said:

It takes ages for the F16 engine to spin down.

doesnt matter.

heatseekers in dcs see only 3 states: engine off, engine running, afterburner running. there is no difference between being in idle and being in milpower.

[darkman222]

Not really sure about that. Possible for AI. But not what I experience on dogfight servers when I am too late pulling back the throttle and get shot, when missile would miss if I had throttled down earlier. Just my feeling.

[Pavlin_33]

On 3/2/2023 at 11:22 PM, darkman222 said:

Not really sure about that. Possible for AI. But not what I experience on dogfight servers when I am too late pulling back the throttle and get shot, when missile would miss if I had throttled down earlier. Just my feeling.

Yup it's like this for all aircraft. It's literally like: 0, 1, 2 state with:
0 - engine off
1 - engine on
2 - afterburner on
Opens up a window for abuse, since you can toggle engines on and off to gain advantage.

[darkman222]

1 minute ago, Pavlin_33 said:

Opens up a window for abuse, since you can toggle engines on and off to gain advantage.

I dont want to abuse but I could find the readout for the afterburner state useful as the AB detent is different in every aircraft and I am setting up my AB detent per aircraft in Winwings Simapp Pro.

How do you read the value out? ( Sorry for the thread hijack)

[Exorcet]

Both AIM-120's outrange the R-77. Use that to your advantage. If you do happen to be shot at with a R-77 at a shorter range, it's like any Fox 3 missile. Force it to maneuver, or if it is really close, notch it.

When against Fox 2, assume they are fired at you if within 15-20 miles of the enemy. Flare, but always make sure your flare program launches at least 2 flares at once. I use P1 (5x 1 chaff) and P6 (5x 2 flare). For emergencies I might ready P3, bit it can be any program besides 1 or 6 which is set to 0 chaff and 10x 2 flare. Also avoid facing the enemy head on if you suspect close range ET or R-73 shots. This way you minimize the chance of flying directly at the missile so that it has to expend energy to lead you and also has a longer flight time to allow it to be distracted by flares.

[Aquorys]

3 hours ago, Exorcet said:

Also avoid facing the enemy head on if you suspect close range ET or R-73 shots.

I'd generalize that: If you're close enough to potentially be shot at with anything, then you probably shouldn't be flying head-on towards an enemy, unless you're shooting or you have another really good reason. Otherwise, you should be maneuvering to deny the enemy a good shot.