reported F/A-18C HARM, my TOO Issue

[LeCuvier]

I have spent a fair number of hours during the past week trying to understand how the TOO mode works. I have used a slightly modified version of the stock mission "Caucasus FA-18C AGM-88C HARM". I believe I did everthing right (according to the Early Access Guide) but would be grateful to learn what I might be doing incorrectly. I have been very careful to always use the same steps, avoiding all unnecessary variation.
I will describe what I experience in about 95% of all instances. A track is attached.

When I approach the target zone in TOO mode the first time, the HARM display shows no radars. At some point, the HARM warns me and switches to SP mode. I fire a missile and turn back to get to a safe distance. The missile hits. I turn around for a new run and switch back to TOO mode.
As I get close enough, the HARM display in TOO now shows the enemy radars, with one of them boxed. So I hit the "Cage/Uncage" button, but no handoff happens. Also the "HARM Sequence" button has no effect. I also tried the "I" and "C" buttons, no effect either. I keep trying, until I get a new threat warning and the HARM reverts to SP mode. I fire my second missile etc. etc. This continues until I have fired my 4 missiles.

In one instance out of >20 the TOO mode worked as expected.
In another instance it switched to SP mode and I fired the missile, and after switching back to TOO i could actually hand off. But these were rare exceptions.

Again, I would be happy to learn where I went wrong. But please no speculation like "the HARM display was not SOI". It was!

FA-18 HARM TOO No Handoff 2.trk

[rob10]

Weird.  I let your track run through until after you turned back in and then took over and I had the exact symptoms you described.  Then I took over right at the start of the track and I could step between the "S" targets with RAID button and handoff to either of them with CAGE (tried that a number of times and always worked).  After I flew on far enough to get the 2, 6 and 8 to come up I could step through and hand them off too.  I didn't notice that I did anything differently to what you did .  Selected HARM, turned on A-G mode, set HARM as TDC priority and good to go.

[AstonMartinDBS]

That's really weird. I did some testing based on the stock F/A-18C Mission "Weapons Qualification - AGM-88C HARM" on Caucasus.

Initially I thought, the issue occurs only, when the HARM page is displayed on the Right DDI. But after some further testing I observed, that the appearance of the issue is exclusively related to the way, how the HARM page is called:

• When I call the HARM page via STORES (PB05)/HARM (PB06)/TOO (PB04) all works fine: the threats detected by the HARM sensor are displayed correctly, the different threats are selectable by the "RAID/FLIR FOV select button" and the hand-off works as expected using the "CAGE/UNCAGE button";
• But when I call the HARM page via HARM DSPLY (PB09) directly and switch to TOO (PB04) none of the threats will be detected by the HARM sensor or displayed in the HARM page; in this case the label STEP next to PB13 is also missing;

I've attached some tracks:

CA FA-18C HARM 01 LDDI TOO working.trk CA FA-18C HARM 02 LDDI TOO working.trk CA FA-18C HARM 03 RDDI TOO working.trk CA FA-18C HARM 04 RDDI TOO issue.trk CA FA-18C HARM 07 LDDI TOO issue.trk CA FA-18C HARM 06 LDDI TOO issue.trk CA FA-18C HARM 08 RDDI TOO issue-and-working.trk

Edited March 7, 2023 by AstonMartinDBS

[LeCuvier]

1 hour ago, AstonMartinDBS said:

... But after some further testing I observed, that the appearance of the issue is exclusively related to the way, how the HARM page is called:

• When I call the HARM page via STORES (PB05)/HARM (PB06)/TOO (PB04) all works fine: the threats detected by the HARM sensor are displayed correctly, the different threats are selectable by the "RAID/FLIR FOV select button" and the hand-off works as expected using the "CAGE/UNCAGE button";
• But when I call the HARM page via HARM DSPLY (PB09) directly and switch to TOO (PB04) none of the treats will be detected by the HARM sensor or displayed in the HARM page; in this case the label STEP next to PB13 is also missing;

 

Bingo! When I open the HARM page from the Stores page the TOO handoff works like a charm. Thanks for spotting this, I was getting desperate!
I would guess then that we have found a bug that needs to be addressed.

[Foka]

Do you switch to HARM screen directly from "HARM DSPLY"? That means missiles are not powered on, so they won't detect anything.
You can select them from stores, box the HARM, then if you switch the DDI to other page and go back to HARM via HARM DSPLY everything is working ok. Boxing  the HARM on stores page will turn them on, so you have to do it first.

[LeCuvier]

23 hours ago, Foka said:

Do you switch to HARM screen directly from "HARM DSPLY"? That means missiles are not powered on, so they won't detect anything.
You can select them from stores, box the HARM, then if you switch the DDI to other page and go back to HARM via HARM DSPLY everything is working ok. Boxing  the HARM on stores page will turn them on, so you have to do it first.

I used to open the HARM format page from the TAC page and this should work, as the Early Acess Guide states:
"When the HARM is selected in either manner, it will first default to the Self-Protect (SP) mode or the last selected mode. From the SP mode, the other modescan also be selected: Target of Opportunity (TOO) mode and Pre-Briefed (PB) mode."

Either manner, that's from the SMS page or from the TAC page. Also, the HARM works in SP mode even when I select it from the TAC page. I therefore doubt (with all due respect) that the HARM is not powered ON if selected that way.

@NineLine: Can you please get clarification? As far as I can see, it's either a bug, or it needs to be corrected in the Early Access Guide.

Edited March 6, 2023 by LeCuvier

[BIGNEWY]

We are looking into it currently, we need to find out if selecting HARM / powering them on is required for SP mode. 

thanks 

[Lord Vader]

Hi @LeCuvier

First of all, let me ask you: Was the HARM MFD SOI? (I'm joking, I saw the track, don't worry).

Now seriously, here are a few remarks regarding this issue.
1 - Early Access guide is currently WIP and some features may need a slight revisit.
2 - I've noticed you're not selecting the HARMs in Stores, so they will never have seeker info to offer. As soon as I took control of your track and selected them, the symbology appeared. So you need to select them first in the stores page and verify they are Ready.
EDIT: An example of this is... the F-16C. In the Viper the HARM pod can detect the radar emissions but not the missiles themselves, so there will be no handoff possible until I can power them on. If there's no HARM pod on board, the missiles will not give symbology to the Weapon page until turned on. 
3 - I had no issue with Handoff as I operated the Stores as SOI and having HARMs selected.
4 - Like @BIGNEWY said, The only item we found needs clarifying is the the fact that you opened fire in SP mode while the missile selection was set to STDBY. We have raised this with the team and are currently looking into it. 

[LeCuvier]

Thanks for clarification! I will make it a habit to power the HARMs up from the SMS page.
And it would certainly help to have correct and complete instructions for weapons use in the documentation.

[Lord Vader]

29 minutes ago, LeCuvier said:

Thanks for clarification! I will make it a habit to power the HARMs up from the SMS page.
And it would certainly help to have correct and complete instructions for weapons use in the documentation.

Yes, there's a habit of comparing both airframes (Viper and Hornet), however some things are (very) different.
For example, we've been talking about "power on" in the Hornet, but let's clarify:
When you go to the Stores page and press the HARM button, you are selecting them, not actually powering them on. Notice they are marked as "Stand By", that means they are powered on, just not selected, therefore the seeker isn't operating. 
Power to the HARM missiles is set when aircraft takes off (WOW logic), btw.

(edited my reply above for the sake of clarification)

[BIGNEWY]

So it looks like the logic is correct as is, but the manual needs to be updated and possibly X added to degraded modes, we will investigate this. 

In SP mode as we know it is an automatic handoff. 

To use TOO mode you need to select HARM and have a RDY showing, if not HARM will have X in the box ( which it does ) and TOO will be degraded ( no hand off, this is possibly where we should have the TOO box X'd )

Thank you

[rob10]

The short/simplified version of all of the above: if you don't have HARM BOXED (that can be just boxed, or boxed and crossed out) your HARM won't be fully functional.  As long as you select HARM from the stores page, you'll box it.  If you select HARM DSPLY from the TAC page WITHOUT it boxed, it won't box and therefore won't be fully functional.  After you have it boxed, then you can select it via the HARM DSPLY OSB and all will be good.  Key thing is, if it's not boxed, it's not fully working.