correct as-is F-16 radar useless in BvR?

[Nimbur]

hello, for some time now the F-16 radar has been patched, and in this state has clearly become too weak in terms of range acquisition and acquisition time...i have had real pilots tell me that a maximum acquisition range of 38 nm is unreal, and the range where the radar burns through interference signals (ECM) is just 20 nm. what is the official stance from ed? is it a bug, or has this machine been deliberately made worse than it really is?

 

would look forward to a factual debate, and would hope that real f-16 fighter pilots would also comment on this.

[VarZat]

Keep in mind ED only cares about a source in the form of an actuall unclassified document or a verified SME that says how the radar should perform. Doubt any real F-16 pilots would want to start discussing the radar online...

[Nimbur]

fact is that they intentionally made the f-16 radar worse than it really is, just because apparently many f-18 pilots complained...i think all radar systems should just be simulated as realistically as possible, instead of listening to frustrated virtual pilots who failed in pvp

 

[Nimbur]

 

and if ed does not ask real pilots, which is not the case either, and only takes the technical data of documents as an example, i then also do not understand why these values are not correct either

 

 

 

The AN/APG-68 radar is a long range (up to 296 km)^[1] Pulse-doppler radar designed by Westinghouse (now Northrop Grumman) to replace AN/APG-66 radar in the F-16 Fighting Falcon. The AN/APG-68(V)8 and earlier radar system consists of the following line-replaceable units:

• Antenna
• Dual Mode Transmitter (DMT)
• Modular Low-power radio frequency (MLPRF)
• Programmable signal processor (PSP)

The AN/APG-68(V)9^[2] radar system consists of the following line-replaceable units:

• Antenna
• Medium Duty Transmitter (MDT)
• Modular Receiver/Exciter (MoRE)
• Common Radar Processor (CoRP)

The AN/APG-68(V)9 radar is the latest development. Besides the increase in scan range compared to the previous version, it has a Synthetic aperture radar (SAR) capability.

The APG-68(V)9 has equipped several variants, including the Egyptian Air Force,^[3] Israeli Air Force,^[4] Chilean Air Force, Republic of Singapore Air Force,^[5] Turkish Air Force,^[6] Royal Moroccan Air Force,^[7] Greek Air Force,^[8] Pakistan Air Force, Polish Air Force,^[9] Royal Thai Air Force,^[10] and Indonesian Air Force.^[11]

Specifications

• Frequency: Starting Envelope frequency around 9.86 GHz.
• Under AIS Testing as high as 26 GHz
• Range: 296.32 km, 184 miles
• Range for 5m² aerial target is 105 km^[12]
• Search cone: 120 degrees × 120 degrees
• Azimuth angular coverage: ±10 degrees / ± 30 degrees / ± 60 degrees
• Programmable Signal Processor (PSP) - The core radar component which is responsible for signal processing, frequency selection, signal digitization for B-Scope display. The PSP is controlled through the F-16 Heads Down Display Set (HDDS) or what is commonly called the Multi-Function Displays (MFDs). The PSP is directed by the system operational flight program (OFP), which is controlled and modified for new threats or addition radar system requirements. The PSP also contains all the controls circuitry for radar A/A and A/G operational scan patterns and SAR/ISAR operation.
• Modular Low Powered Radio Frequency (MLPRF) - The frequency generator for the radar system. Frequency generation is dependent on the random frequency selection from the radar tables within the PSP upon system start-up. The MLPRF will generate a small amount of RF Drive, which is sent to the Dual Mode Transmitter (DMT), where it is amplified and a small RF sample is sent to the MLPRF for comparison checksum (more like a check and balance system). The MLPRF also is responsible for the receiving of the radar return, generating the RF injection noise (for RF discrimination), and the processed RF within the MLPRF is then later sent to the PSP for video processing and threat/target matching against the radar threat tables within the PSP, prior to flightcrew system display.
• Dual Mode Transmitter (DMT) - A 24,000 volt radar transmitter, containing a TWT, which generates the amplified RF to be sent to the radar Antenna for system emission. The TWT operates by optical pulses received from the DMT's internal Pulse Decker Unit and TWT Cathode/Anode voltage inputs.
• Antenna - A planar array antenna, which is constructed to receive RF data through a waveguide system. The transmitted and received pulses are controlled in time by the PMW (Pulse Modulated Wave) radar design, and the waveguide duplexer assembly. Internal to the antenna are Uniphaser Assemblies (used for quadrature phase control), Phase Shifters (used of quadrature I/Q data) and gimbalized motor control for antenna positioning and position correction.

[Hobel]

vor 58 Minuten schrieb Nimbur:

hello, for some time now the F-16 radar has been patched, and in this state has clearly become too weak in terms of range acquisition and acquisition time...i have had real pilots tell me that a maximum acquisition range of 38 nm is unreal, and the range where the radar burns through interference signals (ECM) is just 20 nm. what is the official stance from ed? is it a bug, or has this machine been deliberately made worse than it really is?

 

would look forward to a factual debate, and would hope that real f-16 fighter pilots would also comment on this.

Certain things are still WIP, note the news in which were announced revisions to the F16 as well as F18 radar

[GGTharos]

Unsourced text, claims that 'pilots said' and feelings are worthless.

Even so, the text above has a maximum detection range of 105km (~57nm), and that's for a very specific radar mode and hardware which IIRC the 68V5 (the one modeled in DCS - it's good to know these details before you start such discussions) does not possess.  I don't even recall where this graph comes from, but it is the basic reason why they write 'V9 offers 30% range increase' (over the V5, but they don't write that).

  USAF Vipers in 2007 (the ones DCS modeled in-game) use the V5.

 

The other non-factual statement you made (while claiming it as fact) is that ED did something to the F-16 radar because F-18 fans complained.  This is incorrect.   The F-16 radar was changed because it was over-modeled, presenting capability similar to an AN/APG-63 or AWG-9, which neither the F-16 or F-18 should some close to matching.

 

PS:  For even more fun, APG-66 with flight test results from some random internet source.

Edited March 19, 2023 by GGTharos

[Basher54321]

The top diagram is from an NG sales brochure but it shows the VSR mode which is a longer range (High and Medium PRF) mode that is not in the game yet.

 

Cannot say but looking at the second (types of aircraft & limited modes) probably the original APG-66(V) - in a 1981 congress hearing it was said that not only were they very happy with the APG-66 it was performing 20% better than their requirements specified.

 

[GGTharos]

Yep, the APG-66 needed an update (thus the 68) but detection range is pretty much all about input power, antenna size and suppression of system noise (ie. increased sensitivity) so some later versions of the 66 are comparable to the 68 in that particular way.

The V9's range increase is a direct result of getting a higher powered transmitter AFAIK.

[skywalker22]

3 hours ago, Nimbur said:

...i have had real pilots tell me that a maximum acquisition range of 38 nm is unreal...

So, what they told you? 

In any case, I would say, based on AIM-120C-5 missile's range, the radar AN/APG-68 (V5) is good enough. 

[Basher54321]

Quote

Yep, the APG-66 needed an update (thus the 68) but detection range is pretty much all about input power, antenna size and suppression of system noise (ie. increased sensitivity) so some later versions of the 66 are comparable to the 68 in that particular way.

The V9's range increase is a direct result of getting a higher powered transmitter AFAIK.

 

The APG-66(V)2 and 3 from the mid 1990s look like total rebuilds going by the description of changes.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2023 by Basher54321

[Furiz]

Best I have is this guy, starts playing with radar at 06:38

 

EDIT: maybe if there was a target at 60 miles it would detect, its not shown in this video if there is something there or not. Maybe there was a target at 60-70 miles out but it didn't see it... we don't know

Edited March 19, 2023 by Furiz

[Basher54321]

19 minutes ago, Furiz said:

Best I have is this guy, starts playing with radar at 06:3

 

 

 

If that is VF-126 as the description says then they only operated F-16N (Small Inlet de-tuned Block 30) aggressors up to around 1994 AFAIK.

One change on the F-16N was to replace the APG-68 with the APG-66. (there were some other changes).

So that is probably what the 1980s APG-66 looked like in a C model. That AIR symbol in the top left hand corner is only on the old F-16 APG-66(V) and (V)1 radars that I have seen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wilbur81]

6 hours ago, Nimbur said:

 now the F-16 radar has been patched, and in this state has clearly become too weak in terms of range acquisition and acquisition time...

Nonsense. 

[Terzi]

My 2 cents here: If the F-16 radar was really as weak as it is now in the current DCS version, USAF would not rely on that.

[Wizard_03]

7 hours ago, Terzi said:

My 2 cents here: If the F-16 radar was really as weak as it is now in the current DCS version, USAF would not rely on that.

They don't, they use the big AESA radars on F-15 and F-22s for dedicated counter air. The F-16 in USAF service is a strike fighter with a focus on SEAD.

[skywalker22]

35 minutes ago, Wizard_03 said:

They don't, they use the big AESA radars on F-15 and F-22s for dedicated counter air. The F-16 in USAF service is a strike fighter with a focus on SEAD.

And whole fleet is supported by AWACS for situational awareness - don't forget about that!

Radar is only meant to lock targets from 20-40nm and shoot Fox-3 missiles.

If 120 C-5 has optimal range up to 20nm, I would guess C-7 has 2x more, so up to 40nm. I am talking about distances you get your self some decent chance of hitting the target. 

So, this radar v5 does the trick.

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by skywalker22