A/A refueling for trainees

[JCTherik]

Just now, cfrag said:

everything you do in DCS is pointless.

including AAR, so you don't need any assist.

[cfrag]

Just now, JCTherik said:

including AAR, so you don't need any assist.

That's a nonsequitur. I already said that that I relish doing pointless things like flying a sim. Why would having a helper change this? I'm paying good money to do pointless things. It's called entertainment. And I want more, with more options for everyone.

[SharpeXB]

4 minutes ago, cfrag said:

OK, that I completely do not understand. It's a game.

In any competitive game it’s a basic fact that people all need to be playing by the same rules and with the same level of difficulty. Nobody wants to compete even for fun in a game where every player is just free to choose their limitations. 

[IanC58]

This topic has gone very toxic, time for you all to wind your necks in and close it ....

[Exorcet]

21 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

I do care though.

Why, what are you losing?

21 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

Some people I fly with are now in the process of learning AAR, doing better after every hour of formations, invested lot of time and effort on trying stay calm, adjusting their setup to be just right and just plain learning the aerodynamic behaviour of their airplanes. I'd say it would be pretty huge slap in the face if tomorrow, that reward for the challenge would just be given to everybody for free.

Nothing would change. The reward for learning AAR is knowing AAR. The people that train would still have that, the people that don't won't. Nothing changes.

 

Why don't the existing assists in DCS ruin the game? People don't have to learn to fly properly, and flying is basically the entire point of DCS. Shouldn't DCS be dead?

21 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

I and other people do though.

But they're not exactly convincing. Some people say there is no training value when there is. Some people say it ruins the game but ignore the other assists that exist in DCS.

I guess you're within you're rights to be upset that people don't approach the game exactly how you want them too, but that doesn't mean they can't have what they want. AAR assist don't take anything away from DCS. Until they do, I don't see any reasonable stance against the feature.

21 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

Sadly, that's not implemented, and as with any feature that gives a competitive advantage, this will get abused.

Yet it's part of my standard procedure as I seek a realistic experience. You don't need to force people to comply with carrots and sticks. People will work towards what they want naturally, and it's perfectly OK if they want something different than other people.

21 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

Nobody's saying you must do AAR, it's still the same as it's always have been. Learn AAR and you'll get a full tank of fuel at 30k feet. It's a take it or leave it transaction.

The anti assist side is basically saying that the only valid way to approach AAR is to practice it unassisted. This is incorrect. It's perfectly valid to ask ED to add an assist and learn using that. DCS has implemented new features at the request of players before, nothing new.

21 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

Why aren't you asking for automatic landing, automatic takeoff automatic taxi and automatic PVE autopilot too?[/quote]

Why would I ask for them? There isn't a thread where these things are being debated. I can safely say that if they existed I wouldn't care though. We have PVE autopilot by the way on the multiseat modules.

21 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

Would that be a step too far for you? Perhaps you too don't want to play on servers where 90% of the people aren't actually playing the game.

If I don't want to play on a server I don't, it's a non issue. And if people aren't playing the game, why are they even on the server in the first place?

21 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

Which competitive game have varying difficulty that's forced on people who don't want it?

Where did forced and competitive come from? That wasn't part of the original line.

 

As for MP games with varying difficulty, DCS is one. Most shooters have aim assist options. Driving games have driving assists, etc.

21 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

I explained multiple times why and how does this affect me.

As did I. You said if people won't use the assist they shouldn't be asking for it. You fit into that category don't you? So I guess we can drop the rather silly idea that people can't participate in the discussion.

21 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

You still haven't explained how does this affect you or why do you care.

Since I have I'll just repost what I said already:

" In fact in benefits me by making AAR in missions less of a concern when mission building. As someone who worked to learn AAR, I have absolutely no argument against the assist. "

 

"However yes I do feel like the assist is an overall good thing to add to DCS even if I won't use it. I make missions to share and I know that people are divided on AAR. If there was an assist that would guarantee a high rate of universal AAR success, I could freely add refueling in any mission of mine. "

You can Ctrl + F and search for those and find that they were copied from previous posts, so yes I have explained why AAR assist benefits me even if I won't use it.

 

21 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

The only thing I can understand would be if you're a campaign designer and you want a built-in way to optionally skip AAR purely in single missions only, only as a part of a campaign.

Like how I said. I don't want to be rude, but are you reading my posts? It would explain a lot if you just ignored what you don't like to see.

21 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Again it makes doing AAR completely pointless as a game skill if there’s an easy button that does the same thing. 

We must live in different universes.

  

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

In any competitive game it’s a basic fact that people all need to be playing by the same rules and with the same level of difficulty. Nobody wants to compete even for fun in a game where every player is just free to choose their limitations. 

Do you watch any competitive racing? Did you know that winners can recieve "reward weight" for winning? It's a disadvantage for being successful in order to make it more difficult to keep winning and make it easier for lower performers to win. Just FYI.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Exorcet

[BIGNEWY]

Folks please treat each other with respect, its ok for people not to agree. 

Currently we have no plans for A2A refuelling assists

thank you

[SharpeXB]

It’s amazing how this topic goes on for five pages when ED has stated repeatedly that have no intention of adding this feature. 

[cfrag]

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s amazing how this topic goes on for five pages when ED has stated repeatedly that have no intention of adding this feature

Well, we say 'negotiation begins at "no"', others say 'hope springs eternal'. 

What we agree on is probably that this is a topic that has people engaged  

[JCTherik]

4 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Folks please treat each other with respect, its ok for people not to agree

it's getting slightly heated there, we'll be bit more cucumbers.

 

6 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Currently we have no plans for A2A refuelling assists

Thank you, please don't.

At least not any unrealistic "AAR autopilot".

[BIGNEWY]

4 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

it's getting slightly heated there, we'll be bit more cucumbers.

if it continues I will shut the thread down and issue warnings. 

lets hope it doesn't come to that 

[JCTherik]

Just now, BIGNEWY said:

if it continues I will shut the thread down and issue warnings. 

lets hope it doesn't come to that 

Does it mean we can continue to have a civil debate, or that we should rather close the subject?

[BIGNEWY]

12 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

Does it mean we can continue to have a civil debate, or that we should rather close the subject?

feel free to carry on, but keep it civil. 

thanks

[MAXsenna]

I hope so.
I would be embarrassed to let you know how many years I have been trying to get it in and keep it there ... the basket.

Which module?

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Ironhand]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

If Auto AAR was added to a server you’re flying on, all the time you spent mastering this would have no purpose. Your accomplishment has been taken away. It would be like practicing and learning the cold start only to go online and find all the aircraft started already. And in this small game there probably wouldn’t be the option to choose a server with your preferences. 

 

Your mastery of the skill hasn’t been taken away. Nor have your bragging rights. Nor has your feeling of superiority. You learned the skill so that you can do it right. That’s it’s purpose. Nothing can take that away except forcing the “cheat” on everyone.

[SharpeXB]

3 minutes ago, Ironhand said:

Your mastery of the skill hasn’t been taken away. Nor have your bragging rights. Nor has your feeling of superiority. You learned the skill so that you can do it right. That’s it’s purpose. Nothing can take that away except forcing the “cheat” on everyone.

But then you’ve spent a lot of time and effort on something which then has no real use in the game. 
 

Which is the case anyways. Now that I’ve mastered AAR I hardly use it at all (funny though just like the afore mentioned bicycle you never forget how). Which is another reason why this topic is so puzzling. You don’t need AAR to play DCS. Even the gas guzzling fighter jets can fly for longer than most people are willing to play without a break. DLC campaigns all have work around for this or don’t require it. 
So who are these people who need to AAR so badly that it keeps them out of the game? And why are many people who apparently can AAR arguing for pages and pages on their behalf?

1 hour ago, JCTherik said:

Some people I fly with are now in the process of learning AAR, doing better after every hour of formations, invested lot of time and effort on trying stay calm, adjusting their setup to be just right and just plain learning the aerodynamic behaviour of their airplanes. I'd say it would be pretty huge slap in the face if tomorrow, that reward for the challenge would just be given to everybody for free.

^ this hey sorry you worked so hard at this, now there an easy button!

[sirrah]

Fwiw, I'm just gonna leave this here:

 

Quote from @NineLine

Quote

Wish List threads can be very personal, and as I said above there are no bad ideas. This doesn't mean everyone will like the idea. If you do not like the idea use the star rating on the threads

We do not have time to read through a 30 post thread of two people arguing why something is bad, in fact most times we will just read the first post for the idea and move on from there, if there are 30 posts and a good star rating we will just assume everyone loves the idea. Yes that means that those of you that love arguing about ideas you don't like will actually help the idea get views. So if you don't like it, don't respond, give it 1 star. And be nice to each other. 

Link to original post

 

[Exorcet]

15 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

But then you’ve spent a lot of time and effort on something which then has no real use in the game.

How does refueling have no use in the game? You can't fly 500 miles if your plane only has enough fuel for 250. This remains true even if AAR assists are present.

15 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You don’t need AAR to play DCS.

True, so no one should care if players can do it or not, or if they're using assists.

 

15 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Even the gas guzzling fighter jets can fly for longer than most people are willing to play without a break.

Most people aren't all people. Not every feature needs to have majority support. And DCS has a variety of mission types. It's not hard to come up with a mission that can push the limits on one of the less fuel efficient planes, like the Hornet:

15 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

DLC campaigns all have work around for this or don’t require it. 

Which is a big point. If the mission designer feels the need to exclude AAR because it will reduce the attractiveness of their mission, that's a bad thing. Adding an assist solves this.

15 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

So who are these people who need to AAR so badly that it keeps them out of the game?

It's not about being kept out of the game. It's about being kept out certain missions. As for who they are, they're the people making these request threads.

[SharpeXB]

Just now, Exorcet said:

How does refueling have no use in the game?

Learning to do AAR has no real use in the game if there’s an easy button that does it for you. 

2 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

True, so no one should care if players can do it or not

Right so there no reason for an AAR assist. 

3 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Which is a big point. If the mission designer feels the need to exclude AAR because it will reduce the attractiveness of their mission, that's a bad thing. Adding an assist solves this.

But this problem already has solutions in SP without creating this problematic assist feature. 

4 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

As for who they are, they're the people making these request threads

Funny I don’t see the OP responding here…

[Exorcet]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Learning to do AAR has no real use in the game if there’s an easy button that does it for you. 

Not true. Learning AAR only has no use if you can't AAR. The assist does not take away AAR. If you want to refuel manually, you still need to know how to do it. This applies even if the assist is present.

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Right so there no reason for an AAR assist.

There is a reason for AAR assist, it's to help those people refuel who can't do it completely manually. If there is no reason to care if people can or can't AAR, then there is no reason to be concerned about how they learn. In other words, there is no reason to be against people using an assist instead of manual practice.

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

But this problem already has solutions in SP without creating this problematic assist feature. 

What problems are there with the assist? There are none as far as I see. And what existing solutions are you talking about?

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

What problems are there with the assist?

The fact that it creates yet another divisive setting in multiplayer.

6 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

And what existing solutions are you talking about?

Almost every SP campaign has some creative work around for AAR. Since it is in fact difficult there aren’t any DLC campaign missions I’m aware of that actually require it. Except Maple Flag which is a qualification test where that makes sense. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by SharpeXB

[markom]

8 hours ago, draconus said:

Please refrain from describing what kind of DCS game is when you don't even know what simulation is. Same to you @markom.

I think we're mostly saying the same thing. You may have me mixed up with someone else. I support folks deciding what and how they want to simulate, and not prescribing that they need to be l33t chair flyers to enjoy DCS.

[JCTherik]

3 hours ago, Exorcet said:

but are you reading my posts?

Yes, I've read everything you said, which is why I said that if you're a campaign designer, the single-player-only AAR skip does have merit.

 

-----------------------

Since we keep arguing about various different AAR assists and they have vastly different consequences,

Here's a list of all the proposed AAR assists: (which I saw mentioned so far)

Each with some details.

I'm trying to be objective in the advantage/disadvantage parts in all of those, but the whole list is ultimately based on my own opinions, and while I hope that many would agree with me, I obviously have no say in what gets or doesn't get implemented by ED.

 

Note: For all of the following, with the exception of the last two, I assume that whatever options and mechanics are used in the implementation would also be available in multiplayer, and thus, I'm assuming that most of the popular servers will leave those enabled and up to people's preferences, and my opinions are based on that.

AAR Autopilot:

..as in, a button that takes over the airplane and refuels for you, either before rejoin, after "ready precontact", or after a one successful plug

Advantages:

• Easy to do
• Cinematic and immersive for the player
• Hands off (AFK time)
• Looks normal from third-person view

Disadvantages:

• Cheap, requires no effort
• Cheaty
• Unrealistic in execution
• Doesn't help teaching AAR at all
• A slap in the face of everyone who spent hours practicing to do it manually                                                          

opinion: this isn't ace combat. Hard NO

Wireless AAR:

..as in, flying somewhere in the vicinity of the tanker would magically refill your tanks

Advantages:

• Easy to do
• Still technically involves some flying

Disadvantages:

• Very cheap and cheaty looking
• Very unrealistic
• Breaks immersion for the player AND people around
• Doesn't teach how to fly tight formations
• Even bigger slap in the face of people who spent hours practicing to do it manually
• Looks ugly from a third person view

opinion: my least favourite, hard NO

More forgiving refuel box:

..as in, longer boom, more telescopic boom, longer hose, bigger basket, etc.

Advantages:

• Teaches formation flying
• Still somewhat realistic depending on how much the box size is increased
• If adjustable, could help people become progressively better

Disadvantages:

• Looks ugly from third person view for people who don't have the same settings
• May look grotesque for the people who do have the same settings
• Doesn't teach proper position

opinion: I'm not a big fan, but it's the least evil of the proposed ones so far

Boom tanker lights screen overlay:

..as in, an overlay similar to the meatball overlay to better see the lights under the airforce tankers

Advantages:

• Very non-intrusive
• Only fixing a graphics issue of hard-to-see lights
• Still involves fully manual refueling

Disadvantages:

• If it's a square moving smoothly up and down like the meatball
  overlay does, it will allow people much higher precision than the 5-step
  lights under the tanker, thus slightly unrealistic

• Only applicable to boom tankers

• Only a minor help

opinion: I'd prefer if the graphics glitches get fixed instead, but otherwise, no problem

A button for quick curve preset change:

..as in, having the option to set two sets of axis-tune, ie. curves and saturations, for stick and throttle, and switch between them with a click of a button. One normal with full range for general flying, one precise with highly limited range of motion for AAR and formations

Advantages:

• Could still be considered fully manual AAR
• Functionally equivalent to temporarily changing the curves in the settings

Disadvantages:

• Could mess with people's muscle memory
• Throttle would have to be treated somewhat uniquely, treating the
  current throttle position as the new center of the axis,
  and then applying curve/saturation onto that. Sometimes you're
  refuelling with 20% throttle, other times in 70% throttle, so the
  range of the throttle would have to dynamically shrink around whatever
  position the throttle is in when the button to change the curve is pressed

opinion: You can already do this fully by adjusting curves, so, it's technically just a quality of life thing. No problem

Screen overlay showing hints:

..as in, an entirely new overlay that shows how far you are from an ideal position in each direction, and which way you're currently moving

Advantages:

• Fairly non-intrusive, just an overlay
• Would help teaching refueling

Disadvantages:

• Overlays look ugly on the screen
• People may focus on he overlay instead of the tanker too much

opinion: no problem

Better representation of small G-force changes

..as in, exaggerated head bob or some other screen effects that would show small changes of G-force

Advantages:

• Very non-intrusive
• Actually realistic in terms of what information a real pilot would have, since it's substituting for seat-of-pants

Disadvantages:

• Won't necessarily help refueling that much
• Depending on how it's represented, may look nonintuitive or ugly

opinion..I'd welcome this change everywhere

Depth perception substitute:

..as in, an approximate distance and closure readout of whatever's in the middle of the screen

Advantages:

• Brings some of the advantage of VR onto pancake thus leveling the playing field
• Realistic in terms of what information a real pilot would have, as long as the measurements aren't too precise

Disadvantages:

• Won't make refueling that much easier, may require some getting used to it
• May clutter the screen/look ugly

opinion: no problem

Progressive practice missions:

..as in, a series of strictly single-player missions for practicing formation with any sort of assists that progressively increase in difficulty

Advantages:

• People learn AAR progressively
• Won't affect multiplayer

Disadvantages:

• Won't make actual AAR any easier, it will only make the learning more approachable

opinion: As long as the mechanics can't leak into multiplayer, no problem

Single-player only built in AAR skip mechanics:

..give campaign designers a built-in way to skip AAR

Advantages:

• Solves the single-player campaign issue
• Won't affect multiplayer

Disadvantages:

• Won't teach people AAR at all

opinion: As long as the mechanics can't leak into multiplayer, no problem

 

Those are all I can think of that I've seen being talked about. Any other ideas?

Edited May 4, 2023 by JCTherik

[Exorcet]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The fact that it creates yet another divisive setting in multiplayer.

There really isn't anything to create divisions over. The assist would be personal. A player that turns it on would not turn it on for any other player. All players, no matter their settings, can coexist on the same server without issue.

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Almost every SP campaign has some creative work around for AAR. Since it is in fact difficult there aren’t any DLC campaign missions I’m aware of that actually require it. Except Maple Flag which is a qualification test where that makes sense.

OK then having an assist shouldn't matter if there are already ways to avoid dealing with AAR. Some players still want to refuel, so having an assist that allows you to do so instead of just skipping AAR is desirable.

 

20 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

 advantage/disadvantage

I'd say that the training merit of a few options are under represented. AAR is not a single task but a series of tasks.

 

Autopilot allows one to practice all the non flying aspects. It also has to be turned on, if it's a button press. Meaning that a player can make manual attempts before resorting to pressing the button. This alone expands the amount of missions they can play and likely increases the amount of practice they will put in.

"Cheap" and "cheaty" don't really mean anything here. It's not cheating if it's not against the rules.

Lastly as someone who AAR's manually, this is certainly not a slap in the face. I have exactly zero concern over people getting to refuel while putting in less effort than me.

 

What you called Wireless AAR and More Forgiving Box are basically the same thing. These are excellent training tools because the player can approach them exactly as they would fully manual AAR all while not having to worry about the consequence of failure (as much). A larger refueling box doesn't stop the player from trying to respect the tanker lights, and if they're doing that, they are basically practicing full manual. Learning is about being willing to learn more than anything else.

[SharpeXB]

8 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

There really isn't anything to create divisions over.

All difficulty settings in multiplayer need to apply to everyone. That’s how all games including DCS are. Everyone expects that. 

[Ironhand]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

But then you’ve spent a lot of time and effort on something which then has no real use in the game…

So you’re saying that you didn’t learn it to become a better stick. Fair enough. But I’ll posit that, if you can AAR the “right” way you will be a better airplane driver in other situations as well. So it’s worth the effort regardless. That’s what those who don’t spend the time will miss and, if it’s important to them, will have to acquire in other ways. If it’s not important to them, that’s their call.