correct as is JDAMS do not respect the PP

[Captain Orso]

With that title, I have the feeling, no one will take this seriously, but it is exactly true  

I setup a simple test mission.

• 8 Tanks on a runway, about 1000 feet apart from each other.
• 1 FA-18C with 8*GBU-38
• Mission starts in active pause so that I can program the JDAMs in PP mode.

Previous to running the test, I wrote down the exact coordinates to each and every tank xx° xx xx.xx .

I start the mission and start programming the JDAMS. I checked each PP and station, twice, and all coordinates are correctly entered. Coordinates are also listed in the mission briefing.

For Quantity I select all stations, 2, 3, 7, 8.

Enter mission menu, select PP1 and enter the coordinates for targets 1 - 4, one for each of the four stations.

Step through all stations an confirm correct entry.

Select PP2 and enter coordinates to station 8, and press STEP

Here is the first bug. Instead of stepping to PP2 Station 2, it steps to PP1 Station 2(!!). I click on PP2 and get PP2 Sta2 and continue entering LAT/LON/EL, but each time I press STEP it takes me back to PP1(!!) and I have to re-click PP2.

Once all PP2 are entered, confirm their correctness.

Select PP1 and un-pause.

Upon reaching the valid drop zone, I press and hold the weapons release button until all four GBU-38's for PP1 are released. I observe the fall the the GBU's and see that targets 1, 6, 7, and 8 are hit(!!)

Switch to PP2, turn about and drop the last four bombs, and targets 5, 6, 7, 8 are hit(!!).

Cursing and derogatory remarks have been deleted.

Mission and track fills attached.

Cauc Kobuleti Test GBU-38 FA-18C PP 01.miz JDAM Test 02.trk

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

you do have to be very careful when stepping the stations in PP mode. 

Pay special attention when you pickle, as you mention it can return to the PP1 when the intention is PP2 to be released. 

In my test it seems ok. although I was careless with one targets elevation when inputting ( my error )

[Harker]

3 hours ago, Captain Orso said:

With that title, I have the feeling, no one will take this seriously, but it is exactly true  

I setup a simple test mission.

• 8 Tanks on a runway, about 1000 feet apart from each other.
• 1 FA-18C with 8*GBU-38
• Mission starts in active pause so that I can program the JDAMs in PP mode.

Previous to running the test, I wrote down the exact coordinates to each and every tank xx° xx xx.xx .

I start the mission and start programming the JDAMS. I checked each PP and station, twice, and all coordinates are correctly entered. Coordinates are also listed in the mission briefing.

For Quantity I select all stations, 2, 3, 7, 8.

Enter mission menu, select PP1 and enter the coordinates for targets 1 - 4, one for each of the four stations.

Step through all stations an confirm correct entry.

Select PP2 and enter coordinates to station 8, and press STEP

Here is the first bug. Instead of stepping to PP2 Station 2, it steps to PP1 Station 2(!!). I click on PP2 and get PP2 Sta2 and continue entering LAT/LON/EL, but each time I press STEP it takes me back to PP1(!!) and I have to re-click PP2.

Once all PP2 are entered, confirm their correctness.

Select PP1 and un-pause.

Upon reaching the valid drop zone, I press and hold the weapons release button until all four GBU-38's for PP1 are released. I observe the fall the the GBU's and see that targets 1, 6, 7, and 8 are hit(!!)

Switch to PP2, turn about and drop the last four bombs, and targets 5, 6, 7, 8 are hit(!!).

Cursing and derogatory remarks have been deleted.

Mission and track fills attached.

Cauc Kobuleti Test GBU-38 FA-18C PP 01.miz 33.44 kB · 3 downloads JDAM Test 02.trk 5.41 MB · 3 downloads

What I understand here is that after selecting PP2 for all stations to program them, you then selected PP1 only for the first station. As you pickled, the first station had PP1, so target 1 was hit. The rest of the stations, however, still had PP2 selected, so targets 6,7,8 are hit.

After, you switch to PP2 for the first station only as well and the rest of the stations remain on PP2, so targets 5,6,7,8 are hit.

This is correct behavior. QTY merely enables the simultaneous release of JDAMs from different stations, but these stations still need to be configured individually, and have their PP or TOO targets selected or changed individually.

The one thing that we don't have in DCS is that selecting QTY should also calculate and display a common launch zone for all stations in QTY, if it is possible, whereas now only the primary station has its launch zone displayed.

Still, the above behavior is not a bug.

[Captain Orso]

Thanks for answering, Harder.

Firstly, it is completely illogical, if while programming PP2, I am on PP2 Sta8 and press STEP that it goes anywhere other than PP2 Sta2. Anything else is crazy and follows no rule. It went on jumping to PP1 until all stations under PP2 were programmed, each time forcing me to click PP2 yet again. The first time I did this, I didn't notice that it had changed the Program I was inputting without warning, and 3/4 of PP1 got overwritten.

The Pre-Plans can only be logically organized to be above the stations, otherwise it means nothing. Either it is a plan or it is useless.

Example 1
PP1
Sta2 Sta3 Sta7 Sta8

PP2
Sta2 Sta3 Sta7 Sta8

or

Example 2
PP1
Sta2 Sta3 Sta7 Sta8

PP2
Sta2 Sta8

PP3
Sta3 Sta7

Anything else is gibberish. 

Otherwise you actually only have:

Sta2A Sta2B Sta3A Sta3B Sta7A Sta7B Sta8A Sta8B 

Click on up to 4 before attacking.

It only makes sense that if I have created a Program with Sta2, 3, 7, 8, that when I select that Program, all stations I programmed into that Program are activated for attack. How could it be otherwise? What other logic is there that I can't see?

Edited March 22, 2023 by Captain Orso

[Tholozor]

Each station has its own individual set of PP coordinates.

i.e. PP1 on STA8 is not the same as PP1 on STA2.

Any PP mission programmed is only applicable to the station it was programmed on.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Tholozor

[Captain Orso]

3 minutes ago, Tholozor said:

Each station has its own individual set of PP coordinates.

i.e. PP1 on STA8 is not the same as PP1 on STA2.

 

Thanks for replying, Tholozor.

I should hope so. But that doesn't explain why, when I select PP1 it is dropping on PP2.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Captain Orso

[Harker]

43 minutes ago, Captain Orso said:

Thanks for replying, Tholozor.

I should hope so. But that doesn't explain why, when I select PP1 it is dropping on PP2.

 

Because you're selecting PP1 for one particular station, while the others remain on PP2.

Using QTY does not make every station selected with QTY change PP# together, it merely allows for a single pickle release, instead of Pickle-Pickle-Pickle-Pickle in DCS. (IRL, it also shows you the combined IZLAR (optimal release zone) for all stations, so it's more useful.)

[Tholozor]

Here's my observation from watching the track (time will be referenced off the IFEI clock):

@09:03:25 - STA8 PP2 in the briefing is input as STA8 PP1
@09:04:27 - STA2 PP2 in the briefing is input as STA2 PP1
@09:06:15 - STA8 PP1 is corrected to STA8 PP1 from the briefing
@09:07:20 - STA2 PP1 is corrected to STA2 PP1 from the briefing
@09:09:15 - STA7 PP1 is input with incorrect LON from STA3 PP1 from the briefing
@09:11:51 - STA3 PP1 is input with STA3 PP1 from the briefing
@09:13:52 - STA7 PP1 LON is corrected to STA7 PP1 LON from the briefing
@09:14:40 - STA8 is switched to PP2
@09:15:41 - STA8 PP2 is input with STA8 PP2 form the briefing
@09:15:55 - STA2 is switched to PP2
@09:17:03 - STA2 PP2 is input with STA2 PP2 from the briefing
@09:17:56 - STA7 is switched to PP2
@09:18:53 - STA7 PP2 is input with STA7 PP2 from the briefing
@09:19:12 - STA3 is switched to PP2
@09:20:03 - STA3 PP2 is input with STA3 PP2 from the briefing
@09:20:23 - STA8 is switched to PP1
@09:21:02 - STA2 is switched to PP1
@09:21:29 - STA7 is switched to PP1
@09:21:48 - STA3 is switched to PP1
@09:22:17 - STA8 is switched to PP2
@09:22:35 - STA2 is switched to PP2
@09:23:06 - STA7 is switched to PP2
@09:23:26 - STA3 is switched to PP2
@09:23:45 - STA8 is switched to PP1
- After this, STA2, 7 and 3 are cycled through a few times, but left on PP2
- Initial release is done with STA8 on PP1, and all other stations on PP2
- Second release is done with STA8 switched to PP2, and all other stations are still on PP2.

QTY release will release the selected stations regarding their selected PP mission.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Tholozor

[Captain Orso]

46 minutes ago, Harker said:

Because you're selecting PP1 for one particular station, while the others remain on PP2.

Using QTY does not make every station selected with QTY change PP# together, it merely allows for a single pickle release, instead of Pickle-Pickle-Pickle-Pickle in DCS. (IRL, it also shows you the combined IZLAR (optimal release zone) for all stations, so it's more useful.)

So I have to select each station individually and select the PPx on each, instead of simply selecting the PPx?

[razo+r]

18 minutes ago, Captain Orso said:

So I have to select each station individually and select the PPx on each, instead of simply selecting the PPx?

You need to induvidually tell each station which PP you want to use/drop. 

Simply telling one station which PP to use will not assign the same PP number to the other stations. They will remain in the last used/programmed PP number. 

So for example you want to drop on PP1 you need to manually step through each station and select PP1. After that, if you want to drop on PP2, you have to again manually step through all station and assign PP2 to each station. 

Edited March 22, 2023 by razo+r

[Captain Orso]

 

Thanks for the reply razo+r.

And this makes the PPx buttons absolutely useless and an over complication of everything.

Firstly, it's not a plan AT ALL. It is just the designation of which of the two positions on the pylon is selected.

Secondly, what are PP3, PP4, and PP5 for? the GBU-38 can only be 1 or 2 to a pylon, so any button above PP2 is useless. What are they for?

Thirdly, how do I easily drop just two bombs?

I have three target areas. In the first I want to hit two targets. In the second area I want to hit 4 targets, and in the third area I again want to hit just two targets.

I've programmed all the bombs--I better keep my target sheet handy, because now I will need it to keep track of which bomb is programmed for which target, because, you know the pre-plan is not a plan, just a pylon position.

So pylon position 1 on Sta8 & 2 are for target area 1, targets #1 & #2. Return to the J82 main page -> QTY -> box Sta2 & Sta8, unbox the rest ->JDAM DISP -> MSN -> STEP to Sta8 -> PP1 -> STEP to Sta2 -> PP1. Now I'm ready to drop Warheads-On-Foreheads™, and it only took me 30 to 45 seconds with my nose glued to the UFS and DDI the entire time, when if the targeting system weren't programmed with someone with learning disabilities, I could have simply pressed PP1.

For target area 2 the same thing - back out, QTY selection, back in go to all station, select the correct position (better cross reference with my list to be sure the right positions on the pylons are selected, because with all this jumping about and selecting this station, and that position for this target, over and over again, it's bound to wear you down mentally,) is there anyone with their head outside the cockpit insuring we aren't about do die from some enemy who could sail in without a worry, if he knew I was too busy to look up.

I cannot help thinking, someone read the manual wrong.

And I'd still like to know what PP3, PP4, and PP5 are for!

Edited March 22, 2023 by Captain Orso

[Captain Orso]

4 hours ago, Tholozor said:

Here's my observation from watching the track (time will be referenced off the IFEI clock):

@09:03:25 - STA8 PP2 in the briefing is input as STA8 PP1
@09:04:27 - STA2 PP2 in the briefing is input as STA2 PP1
@09:06:15 - STA8 PP1 is corrected to STA8 PP1 from the briefing
@09:07:20 - STA2 PP1 is corrected to STA2 PP1 from the briefing
@09:09:15 - STA7 PP1 is input with incorrect LON from STA3 PP1 from the briefing
@09:11:51 - STA3 PP1 is input with STA3 PP1 from the briefing
@09:13:52 - STA7 PP1 LON is corrected to STA7 PP1 LON from the briefing
@09:14:40 - STA8 is switched to PP2
@09:15:41 - STA8 PP2 is input with STA8 PP2 form the briefing
@09:15:55 - STA2 is switched to PP2
@09:17:03 - STA2 PP2 is input with STA2 PP2 from the briefing
@09:17:56 - STA7 is switched to PP2
@09:18:53 - STA7 PP2 is input with STA7 PP2 from the briefing
@09:19:12 - STA3 is switched to PP2
@09:20:03 - STA3 PP2 is input with STA3 PP2 from the briefing
@09:20:23 - STA8 is switched to PP1
@09:21:02 - STA2 is switched to PP1
@09:21:29 - STA7 is switched to PP1
@09:21:48 - STA3 is switched to PP1
@09:22:17 - STA8 is switched to PP2
@09:22:35 - STA2 is switched to PP2
@09:23:06 - STA7 is switched to PP2
@09:23:26 - STA3 is switched to PP2
@09:23:45 - STA8 is switched to PP1
- After this, STA2, 7 and 3 are cycled through a few times, but left on PP2
- Initial release is done with STA8 on PP1, and all other stations on PP2
- Second release is done with STA8 switched to PP2, and all other stations are still on PP2.

QTY release will release the selected stations regarding their selected PP mission.

 

Many thanks for your detailed analysis, Tholozor.

I needed to find the time to follow your points, but yes I believe you have picked out all the facts.

What I am really questioning, is whether this is working correctly. If I could get my hands on the NATOPS I'd look up the procedures myself, but I cannot find a copy online.

I think I've covered all the points, which make me skeptical as to how Pre-Planning works in Reality™, or at least why I'm skeptical to it working the way it works in DCS.

[rob10]

Do a search of this subforum.  This topic has been discussed at length previously (on more than one occasion IIRC).

[Tholozor]

The logic behind QTY release is working as intended based on documentation I've read, it's purpose is to provide the pilot the ability to release multiple JDAMs on multiple targets all at once. It's up to the pilot to select what each JDAM is targeting for the QTY release. Once the dynamic intersection IZLAR is implemented, QTY release will be more efficient on multiple targets.

[Harker]

3 hours ago, Captain Orso said:

 

And I'd still like to know what PP3, PP4, and PP5 are for!

 

Normally, PP targets are loaded via data transfer, not typed in manually by the pilot (the pilot can still manually overwrite PP targets). So, I expect we'll be able to do that once DTC functionality comes to DCS.

Having 6 preloaded PP targets per station offers the pilot flexibility in choosing targets, upon arrival to the AO. Maybe the targets corresponding to PP1/2/3 are too heavily defended and the flight opts to attack secondary targets at PP4,5,6. It is also possible that PP targets are shared between aircraft, for redundancy. In that case, 1 can attack PP1/2/3 and 2 can attack PP4/5/6, for example.

Generally, it never hurts to have more options

[Tholozor]

Truly pre-planned missions can have much more functional data programmed into the mission than the pilot is capable of doing in the cockpit as well. The programming software used to write the missions for the memory unit provides mission planners with a ton of options for making optimal attacks. Missions can be named, have pre-determined TOTs, terminal settings, JPF settings, and can generate a pre-planned IZLAR for use in determining a launch point based on specified quantity release parameters and terminal settings.

[Captain Orso]

I've been watching Wag's Youtube videos on the F/A-18 and JDAMs, specifically Hornet Update: Introduction to JDAM, LTWS and More from 24 March 2019, and DCS: F/A-18C Hornet - Multi-Target Mission Attacks (JDAM / JSOW) from 15 June 2019.

In both he refers to PPx as missions. He used both synonymously.

Ergo, if PP1 is a mission, selecting PP1 MUST select all stations programmed to it, without any other garbage in-between. This would also explain exactly what additional PPx are; they are slots for assigning additional missions designated PP1 thru PP6.

Therefore, as stated in my first post, while programming PP2, when pressing STEP and the box jumps from PP2 to PP1, it's a BUG.

When two or more missions are programmed, selecting the mission slot (PP1 thru PP6) MUST select all stations programmed into that mission without any other steps. This is not the behavior I have documented and is therefore also a BUG.

[Tholozor]

That was the old QTY logic and was incorrect, it's been changed since then.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Tholozor

[Captain Orso]

11 hours ago, Tholozor said:

That was the old QTY logic and was incorrect, it's been changed since then.

 

Please show where this is documented. I have shown where official publication presents that the PP is a mission and includes the stations programmed into the PP. I will need an equally official publication demonstrating a change to the logic presented by ED in Wag's video.

QTY is only a filter. It determines which stations can be selected while programming a mission.

If boxing a PPx does not select ALL stations programmed into that PP, it has absolutely no meaning. You are otherwise forced to select every single station you wish to use for an attack, and the selected PP has no meaning. This is demonstrated in the track file I provided.

13 hours ago, Harker said:

Normally, PP targets are loaded via data transfer, not typed in manually by the pilot (the pilot can still manually overwrite PP targets). So, I expect we'll be able to do that once DTC functionality comes to DCS.

Having 6 preloaded PP targets per station offers the pilot flexibility in choosing targets, upon arrival to the AO. Maybe the targets corresponding to PP1/2/3 are too heavily defended and the flight opts to attack secondary targets at PP4,5,6. It is also possible that PP targets are shared between aircraft, for redundancy. In that case, 1 can attack PP1/2/3 and 2 can attack PP4/5/6, for example.

Generally, it never hurts to have more options

NO! PP are meaningless unless they select the programmed stations.

[Phantom711]

@Captain Orso

remember that the Hornet is still Early Access. Several features were added or changed during the last few years. ED has simply failed on updating the documentation but they promised to do so for the final release. Bottom line: the doc you referred to from 2019 is simply waaaaaayyyyy outdated to a point, where the information therein is simply wrong.

I recommend you check out „Chucks guide“! Still not always 100% correct, but better than the official manual.

 

How it works now:

(at least to my best knowledge)

Regarding the PP there is no such thing as a „mission“.

You can programm up to 6 PP per station. So 24 targets in total.

By boxing the PP on each you can absolutely freely select which tgt the respective bomb will go to on the next release.

QTY is NOT a filter during programming! Under QTY you box the stations you want to release at once at your next pickle. The bombs will then go to the PP you had boxed for that station previously.

so it actually is pretty straight forward and allows for great flexibility even though you might not make use of it in its fullest in DCS.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Phantom711

[Captain Orso]

Thanks for replying, Phantomo711.

I am aware of how it "works". I am saying that the way it "works" is bugged, not only in STEPping from station to station in some cases, but in how the PPx work, and I have declared my sources of information and the logic behind my conclusions.

If you do not believe the PP is a mission, please take it up with Mat Wagner, because that is what he teaches, and I have yet to see anything declaring a change to that, other than statements within this thread.

[Captain Orso]

On 3/22/2023 at 2:51 PM, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, 

you do have to be very careful when stepping the stations in PP mode. 

Pay special attention when you pickle, as you mention it can return to the PP1 when the intention is PP2 to be released. 

In my test it seems ok. although I was careless with one targets elevation when inputting ( my error )

Hi Bignewy,

Please speak with Mat Wagner, because he is teaching that PP are missions, and what he says makes a world of sense, although NO ONE--not Mat, not Chuck's guides, no one--takes multiple weapons per pylon into account.

The jumping from PP2 to PP1 while programming and stepping thru the second set of JDAMs can only be a bug. There is no logical reason to without warning jump to a station and PP1 which are already programmed.

After over 35 years in IT--several of which were as a programmer--I recognize halve-baked, un-thought-thru coding when I see it.

There's a saying in IT, computers don't make mistakes, and to 99.9995%, with regard to the hardware, that is correct. But damn, you should have a look at the programmers.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Captain Orso

[Phantom711]

The double rack JDAMs are being treated like one bomb as far as programming goes (PP or TOO doesn‘t matter).

You can not step through each bomb, you can only step through the stations…there is no such thing as a „second set of bombs“…even though I kind of understand what you mean.

I don‘t see a bug here…as I said. You have to assign the desired PP for each STA individually. It is not meant to assign a set of PP1 or PP2 etc to ALL STA at once.

The behaviour is absolutely predictable.

 If that or the „old“ version are correct with regards to the real world…I don‘t know, but I trust ED, that they tried to make it as realistic as possible.

[Foka]

You are referring to 4-years-old tutorial to new feature introduced to Early Access module. It is obvious that this may and probably will change.

HMD alignment have changed, AIM-120 behavior have changed and lots more.

Talking about 4-years-old video all the time is like arguing Pluto is a planet, because it's what you were taught in the school, like you would say there are countries Yugoslavia and USSR in Europe. World is changing, that includes games.

If you have any documented information how it worked in real F/A-18C, please provide it to developers. Insisting that it should work one way or another simply based on introduction video of this same developer is not a legitimate source.

[Captain Orso]

7 hours ago, Phantom711 said:

The double rack JDAMs are being treated like one bomb as far as programming goes (PP or TOO doesn‘t matter).

You can not step through each bomb, you can only step through the stations…there is no such thing as a „second set of bombs“…even though I kind of understand what you mean.

I don‘t see a bug here…as I said. You have to assign the desired PP for each STA individually. It is not meant to assign a set of PP1 or PP2 etc to ALL STA at once.

The behaviour is absolutely predictable.

 If that or the „old“ version are correct with regards to the real world…I don‘t know, but I trust ED, that they tried to make it as realistic as possible.

QTY works as a filter. Set QTY to Sta8 & Sta2 and you cannot program Sta3 or 7.

The idea that anyone in their right mind is going to program 4 stations with each 6 different targets, and then somewhere in the air, start picking and choosing which up to four targets from 24 he's going to hit on a given bomb run, boarders on insanity, or at the very least, a total break with reality. The idea is I find childish.

The proximity of targets to one another will naturally allow them to be grouped into a single mission ie PP. I conjecture this will be the case nearly always. Being able to select this PP, and by that I mean select each target to be attack on a single pass, is only logical. That there may be exceptions to this rule on the rarest of occasion I can accept. The idea that because of these scarce occurrences every target must always be selected individually is a highly radical idea, unless you would like to suggest, the engineers at McDonnell Douglas are highly incompetent.

ED has countlessly made changes to paradigms during the development of aircraft. This would be just one more, nothing radical nor unusual.