fixed internally George doesn't understand VRS

[bradmick]

Real pilots don’t like 25 knots of wind either…I’d say the average wind I’ve experienced over my flying career is 10 to 15 with the extremes being 25 to 30 on exceptionally rare cases…

Edited October 19, 2023 by bradmick

[travissgrey]

Encountered the issue 30 min ago while flying in multiplayer. Switched in the CPG seat, I left the controls to George, and when he was at 0 knots he started drifting violently to the left and right. Tried to adjust altitude, changing heading and speed, but in the end he was unable to hovering.

I reproduced the issue easily during an instant mission bug george.trkto not send a gigantic track file.

[Lord Vader]

Hi @travissgrey

Like it was previously mentioned, we're still working on George's flight skills. Again, it's always recommended to properly trim the aircraft before handling the controls to George, especially when trying to hover.

[travissgrey]

I’m not really sure this is a normal thing related to George flying skills. I mean i’m aware of the entire trim system. The track that i provided shows me passing the control of the 64 to George while i was in a near perfect hovering above the runway, and he is simply unable to maintain that. Same results if you pass the chopper to him during different stages of the flight. George had zero problems maintaining an hover status before 2.9.

Hope this will be investigated but it’s okay because i’m already seeing multiple guys pointing at the same issue.

 

Then i’m not sure why my bug report got moved in this VRS topic, because i was talking about a complete different problem. I was already aware that George will get himself into an easy VRS while flying the Apache.

Edited October 22, 2023 by travissgrey

[FatSlapper]

This happens to me a lot as Pilot and George as the CPG! Hovering and maneuvering around shooting stuff for 20 minutes and BAM! rapid loss of altitude! Tried many times to power out of it with collective but you have to be aware of the instant you start losing altitude! Yes, lateral movement works best. George can't resolve this because of these two theories as to why it keeps happening: #1 VRS is too exaggerated and too easy to enter, i find it almost impossible to hover without entering VRS at any altitude! #2 I use a Thrustmaster Warthog throttle as a collective(I don't think it matters what axis or brand controller you use). The first 50% of travel on this axis is used to just lift off the ground the next 3% of axis travel YES! 3% is where you do all of your flying, pull up 2.5% and ascend at 5000 fpm!!! reduce it 1.5% and you drop out of the sky like a rock!!!! The remaining 47% of collective axis travel is USELESS! So at 2500 feet hovering you notice you are ascending too much so you bump the collective down a millionth of an inch and ya start dropping like a rock while entering VRS and thats IT, you or George can't recover without a lateral move, repeat ad nauseum! Why does a microscopic tiny movement of the collective result in a high verticle velocity or a drop like a rock??? This is a controller mapping issue, the middle 50-70% of collective axis travel should be used for vertical velocities not 3%. We would have much finer grain of control for VV and hovering. Yanking the guts out of the aircraft with the collective just results in a loss of lift/ power exacerbating the above problems. Waiting for you to fix this Eagle Dynamics....  

[Floyd1212]

2 hours ago, FatSlapper said:

i find it almost impossible to hover without entering VRS at any altitude!

I think most people are not experiencing this issue like you are.  The only time I experience VRS is after descending and I've let my VSI drop way too fast.  Trying to gather that back up with collective only will often result in VRS.

Maybe post a snapshot of your curve on your collective axis?  (I think most of us fly without a curve on the collective.)  If you have no curve, maybe you should add one to make the majority of the throw usable for you?  Could you have some external curve setup in some other software external to DCS?

Also, make sure you aren't lowering the throttle (not collective) unintentionally while flying, ever.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Floyd1212

[comcat]

THE VRS is not well modelled in the Apache: while it is a real problem IRL, the recovery should be way easier than it is in DCS.

IRL, the slightest movement through air, like IAS 20kts should punch you out of VRS. It could be sideways, forward or even rearward.

unfortunately in DCS it takes way too much effort and altitude. IRL I enter Vortex almost once a day.

 

The SAS system seems to be broken after the update, hence it effects George as pilot.

I can fly better just with a good trim. even in forward flight, when engaging attitude hold, the Apache will roll and induce a turn.... annoying!!!

It's not a George problem, its a flight model problem.

Edited October 24, 2023 by comcat

[Flappie]

@petsild I've just rechecked your track in OB. It looks like George has improved his pilot skills. Can we consider this issue fixed?

[petsild]

1 hour ago, Flappie said:

@petsild I've just rechecked your track in OB. It looks like George has improved his pilot skills. Can we consider this issue fixed?

Now George slows down pretty slowly and it works flawlessly.

It's fixed thanks for the message.

[AstonMartinDBS]

6 hours ago, petsild said:

Now George slows down pretty slowly and it works flawlessly.

Well, it seems that George learned to avoid VRS, but now he sometimes cannot manage to obtain a hover and continues flying at speeds of 20 to 40 IAS. I'll open a new thread fot this issue as soon as I have a short track.

[bradmick]

3 minutes ago, AstonMartinDBS said:

Well, it seems that George learned to avoid VRS, but now he sometimes cannot manage to obtain a hover and continues flying at speeds of 20 to 40 IAS. I'll open a new thread fot this issue as soon as I have a short track.

Are you sure George has hover power available? There are cases where hovering isn’t an option, perhaps George is trying to prevent entering a condition the helicopter can’t support, I.e. an OGE hover where OGE power isn’t available.

[AstonMartinDBS]

7 minutes ago, bradmick said:

Are you sure George has hover power available? There are cases where hovering isn’t an option, perhaps George is trying to prevent entering a condition the helicopter can’t support, I.e. an OGE hover where OGE power isn’t available.

It's possible that this was the case. It happened two times in two different missions at Syria. I'm tryin' to reproduce.

[FalcoGer]

This is labeled fixed. But just yesterday george as pilot was reacting to VRS by just raising the collective until torque was 160% at which point I had to take over myself.

[FatSlapper]

NOT fixed in stable, by any stretch 

[BIGNEWY]

Wait for the next update. I will adjust the tag

thank you 

[nikoel]

I will chime in.

George is a gumby, no questions. He be learnin' tho.

My gut feeling is that at least partially the root of the problem is that the Vortex Ring State is over-exaggerated/modeled. It's in the same bucket as the current implementation of Tail Rotor Roll and the vaseline-coated tyres

I will preface this by saying I've never flown an Apache in real life, but I have flown many other helicopters. When we teach the Vortex Ring State, it can be at times difficult to even get properly into. We often pick calmer days to give us the best chance of success (successful failure?) and even once inside, the aircraft can often get out of the situation automatically because of a random wind gust as you descend through flight levels. This, of course, usually happens just as you hand the controls over to the student. The hazardous condition is less of a on-off switch, more of a clutch, or a gradual lever.

The Apache becomes akin to an Ornithopter from Dune with its wings folded. Minimal onset, minimal shuddering, just an express elevator to the ground level, you're a passenger now, Yeeee-Haaaaw

In addition to the above, there needs to be a certain amount of randomness introduced, the odds of getting in (and out) adjusted, especially in missions with wind.

Additions: We can't feel our stomachs being left behind, so I believe it's important to introduce sound. The more junk there is, the more the helicopter sounds like a rattlesnake. Apache got juuuunk, should sound like one of those Indian belly dancers covered in cymbals. In my experience I see a lot more random pitching and yawing too

Maybe real Apache Pilots can chime into this and prove what I have experienced so far in other aircraft does not apply to this bird

Edited February 21 by nikoel