Realistic buffeting added - why is it optional?

[bies]

Why is it implemented as an option (turned off by default) and not just replacing older model?

Thanks for your work, cheers

Edited May 19, 2023 by bies

[fat creason]

We anticipated there would be a large amount of people complaining about it so we made it an opt-in feature.

[Dannyvandelft]

We anticipated there would be a large amount of people complaining about it so we made it an opt-in feature.

It's sad when you have to do things like that just to avoid the complaining. We're here to fly the most realistic versions of combat aircraft ever made, but when it gets too hard, too realistic, the crying starts. Adapt, or go fly a Hornet I'd say

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[Despayre]

1 hour ago, Dannyvandelft said:

It's sad when you have to do things like that just to avoid the complaining. We're here to fly the most realistic versions of combat aircraft ever made, but when it gets too hard, too realistic, the crying starts. Adapt, or go fly a Hornet I'd say
 

 

It's spelled "r-e-d-d-i-t", but it's pronounced "massive army of whiners whining about the most ridiculous things daily, and, occasionally, a legitimate complaint." ... and there's thousands of them... 

Your point remains valid, I just think you're underestimating the amount, and volume level, of the whiners.

[scommander2]

I will say "opt-out" for disabling the feature if people do not want it....

[captain_dalan]

6 hours ago, Dannyvandelft said:

It's sad when you have to do things like that just to avoid the complaining. We're here to fly the most realistic versions of combat aircraft ever made, but when it gets too hard, too realistic, the crying starts. Adapt, or go fly a Hornet I'd say

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

Do note that the word realism can hold very different meaning to different people. And while most people here like to pretend they are pilots, very very few like to pretend they are aviators. And i don't mean these terms in the shore and carrier based stick actuators meaning of the words. 

[Dannyvandelft]

Do note that the word realism can hold very different meaning to different people. And while most people here like to pretend they are pilots, very very few like to pretend they are aviators. And i don't mean these terms in the shore and carrier based stick actuators meaning of the words. 

If I wanted to fly unrealistic Tomcats I'd fly MSFS

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[captain_dalan]

3 minutes ago, Dannyvandelft said:

If I wanted to fly unrealistic Tomcats I'd fly MSFS

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Yeah, but what is realistic? I.E. some people regard their seating apparatus being shaken by a powered cushion when pulling g's to be a realistic feature. I have a strong feeling these people have never pulled actual g's in a plane. And if we ditch the cushion, how does one experience g's in a sim? And if one doesn't, how is that realistic? 

Or better yet, how does one fly like this?

https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/pilots-versus-aviators/

Or is realism in DCS limited to flipping switches and pressing buttons? 

[Dannyvandelft]

Yeah, but what is realistic? I.E. some people regard their seating apparatus being shaken by a powered cushion when pulling g's to be a realistic feature. I have a strong feeling these people have never pulled actual g's in a plane. And if we ditch the cushion, how does one experience g's in a sim? And if one doesn't, how is that realistic? 

Or better yet, how does one fly like this?

https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/pilots-versus-aviators/

Or is realism in DCS limited to flipping switches and pressing buttons? 

We're not talking about peripherals, We're talking about flight models. If HB can implement a more realistic FM, then that should be the only option.

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[RaisedByWolves]

8 hours ago, fat creason said:

.............. large amount of people complaining about it so we made it an opt-in feature.

LOL

[draconus]

55 minutes ago, DD_Fenrir said:

It has NOTHING to do with FM. 

That's not what we've been told by @fat creason before. It is connected to HB's FM implementation even if only the shaking amplitude is different.

We know our hardware limitations very well and we can only argue which one is more realistic.

Imho the simulator should first and foremost stay withing RL parameters and then, optionally, offer "compensations" (like unrealistic sounds, more shaking, different controller ranges, etc.) if one wishes to use them. The "realistic" AoA feedback does not take the cues away - it just keeps the shaking to the RL level - that's how I understand it does.

[bfr]

5 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

Yeah, but what is realistic? I.E. some people regard their seating apparatus being shaken by a powered cushion when pulling g's to be a realistic feature. I have a strong feeling these people have never pulled actual g's in a plane. And if we ditch the cushion, how does one experience g's in a sim? And if one doesn't, how is that realistic? 
 

I ask my partner to stand behind me and stretch my face and pull back on my head depending on how hard/sudden my pitch movements are.

[Dannyvandelft]

That's not what we've been told by @fat creason before. It is connected to HB's FM implementation even if only the shaking amplitude is different.
We know our hardware limitations very well and we can only argue which one is more realistic.
Imho the simulator should first and foremost stay withing RL parameters and then, optionally, offer "compensations" (like unrealistic sounds, more shaking, different controller ranges, etc.) if one wishes to use them. The "realistic" AoA feedback does not take the cues away - it just keeps the shaking to the RL level - that's how I understand it does.

100% agreed. The jet should be modeled as close to RL as standard, and then IF there need to be concessions made (for transferring Hornet drivers ) those should be optional. But out of the box it should be as realistic as possible.

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[BIGNEWY]

folks in this thread, I have had a tidy up, please treat everyone with respect when posting on our forum 

If you can not please do not post. 

thank you

[zildac]

I ask my partner to stand behind me and stretch my face and pull back on my head depending on how hard/sudden my pitch movements are.

[DD_Fenrir]

The augmented shaking is to compensate for the very prounounced lack of tactile feedback that real pilots get from the jet trembling and shaking, something that unless you have a Buttkicker or JetSeat equivalent, you don't get.

There's an argument to be had that it becomes more unrealistic without these augmentations; Heatblur have done similar with sound cues, having the burner lighting as an audible cue because there is no way to replicate the apparent kick in the pants the real thing gives you

Plastic spring tensioned joysticks and office chairs in front of a 2D screen are unrealistic - are the elitists here going to demand we all have to have VR, full simpits, seat shakers and someone to sit on our chest to replicate the g loading? What about a guy with a kosh to knock us out if we G-LOC?

At some point you have to accept compromise in order to SIMULATE.

Ultimately it's an option. A choice. You have that now.

You want to stroke your ego and tell yourself how great you are by flying in realistic mode without tactile aids, fine, go for it, but I don't think that is realistic as you are artificially denuding yourself of feedback that informs real pilots.

It certainly doesn't give anybody the right to be derogotory or sneering towards those who may choose to fly with that setting off.

 

 

 

[Dannyvandelft]

It certainly doesn't give anybody the right to be derogotory or sneering towards those who may choose to fly with that setting off.
 
 
 

Nobody was.



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[captain_dalan]

3 hours ago, bfr said:

I ask my partner to stand behind me and stretch my face and pull back on my head depending on how hard/sudden my pitch movements are.

I knew i should not have let her go!!! 

8 hours ago, Dannyvandelft said:

We're not talking about peripherals, We're talking about flight models. If HB can implement a more realistic FM, then that should be the only option.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

Like Fenrir said, this has nothing to do with FM.

[captain_dalan]

3 hours ago, draconus said:

That's not what we've been told by @fat creason before. It is connected to HB's FM implementation even if only the shaking amplitude is different.

 

Mate, that's like tying the biology of an apple tree with Earth orbital mechanics. Just because one stems from the other, doesn't mean they are one and the same. In fact, the above mentioned translation is a schoolbook example of number translation/ You can tie it in a geometric fashion, you can tie it in linear fashion, you can even tie it in inverse-proportional fashion if you like. One or the other may more closely resemble the effect in real life (in this case the linear one), but the amplitude of representation is highly arbitrary and more or less artistical choice. Heck, even two different people would perceive the same flutter vibrations in a real plane differently. What one would describe as normal, other would say it's strong or vice versa. 

3 hours ago, Dannyvandelft said:

100% agreed. The jet should be modeled as close to RL as standard, and then IF there need to be concessions made (for transferring Hornet drivers ) those should be optional. But out of the box it should be as realistic as possible.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

Ironically, after my initial tests last night, i think the Horner drivers would feel like home in the F-14 more then ever. She does feel very Hornet like, even at 34 degrees alpha. 

[bfr]

1 hour ago, DD_Fenrir said:

The augmented shaking is to compensate for the very prounounced lack of tactile feedback that real pilots get from the jet trembling and shaking, something that unless you have a Buttkicker or JetSeat equivalent, you don't get.

There's an argument to be had that it becomes more unrealistic without these augmentations; Heatblur have done similar with sound cues, having the burner lighting as an audible cue because there is no way to replicate the apparent kick in the pants the real thing gives you

Plastic spring tensioned joysticks and office chairs in front of a 2D screen are unrealistic - are the elitists here going to demand we all have to have VR, full simpits, seat shakers and someone to sit on our chest to replicate the g loading? What about a guy with a kosh to knock us out if we G-LOC?

At some point you have to accept compromise in order to SIMULATE.

Ultimately it's an option. A choice. You have that now.

You want to stroke your ego and tell yourself how great you are by flying in realistic mode without tactile aids, fine, go for it, but I don't think that is realistic as you are artificially denuding yourself of feedback that informs real pilots.

It certainly doesn't give anybody the right to be derogotory or sneering towards those who may choose to fly with that setting off.

 

 

 

Indeed. If you can't know (due to lack of some kind of feedback) you are on the edge until you are over it and are hurtling towards your new career as a smouldering crater then where is the enjoyment?  I've no problem with the older jets trying to kill me every 5 minutes, and I quite enjoy the challenge. Just as long though as I have some kind of indication i'm getting it angry.  If that includes adding/embellishing some cues to replace the lack of actual motion/forces/feedback from the Mk 1 Butt then that's fine.

[eatthis]

On 5/18/2023 at 8:52 PM, fat creason said:

We anticipated there would be a large amount of people complaining about it so we made it an opt-in feature.

i havnt tried it but i suspect itd ruin my muscle memory and id have to relearn it all over again, thanks for leaving it optional, i LOVE that feedback

On 5/18/2023 at 8:56 PM, Dannyvandelft said:

It's sad when you have to do things like that just to avoid the complaining. We're here to fly the most realistic versions of combat aircraft ever made, but when it gets too hard, too realistic, the crying starts. Adapt, or go fly a Hornet I'd say

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

realism includes we simply cant get on pc, the original settings are there to help compensate and imo the did a great job of it! 

[eatthis]

On 5/19/2023 at 9:22 AM, bfr said:

I ask my partner to stand behind me and stretch my face and pull back on my head depending on how hard/sudden my pitch movements are.

i dread to think what your partner does if you eject! leafblower? baseball bat?

[bfr]

42 minutes ago, eatthis said:

i dread to think what your partner does if you eject! leafblower? baseball bat?

Thankfully I do normally bail out, hence I haven't found out exactly why she keeps that jerry can of paraffin nearby.

[eatthis]

16 minutes ago, bfr said:

Thankfully I do normally bail out, hence I haven't found out exactly why she keeps that jerry can of paraffin nearby.

shes either a nutter, a keeper, or both