VR MT - OpenXR - OpenVR - SteamVR

[actually_fred]

6 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

There will never be a VR runtime for Windows made by Pico.

Pico have said this is coming by the end of the year.

[RealDCSpilot]

3 hours ago, actually_fred said:

Pico have said this is coming by the end of the year.

What exactly did they say? Source?

[shagrat]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb RealDCSpilot:

@BIGNEWY Oh my god. Please delete this poll. It's technically impossible. OpenXR is no runtime, it's only an API. A runtime is needed to access an API. This will only cause confused users getting even more confused. For a VR API you always need a VR runtime. There are three main runtimes: SteamVR / WMR / OculusVR and 4 VR API: OpenXR, OpenVR, LibOVR and WMR (same name as the runtime) - but only OpenXR is supported by every runtime. So technically, there is only one logical choice anyway for DCS's dev team and the future of VR in DCS, go OpenXR! Save time and ressources with taking support of the older APIs out (OpenVR and LibOVR).

DCS or any other PCVR game provide support for APIs only anyway, right now these are: OpenVR (SteamVR's own VR API), OpenXR (new standard API for everything VR/XR) and LibOVR (the older Oculus/Facebook VR API for PC/Windows and for their older wired PCVR headsets). The question which runtime to choose is completely on the user side, dependend on your VR HMD and which runtime it supports. There is no choice for OpenXR alone! You always need a runtime besides that.

@shagrat SteamVR is no middleman to avoid, it's essential as a VR runtime to access the API OpenXR. There will never be a VR runtime for Windows made by Pico. Virtual Desktop emulates OculusVR runtime, you can try to run DCS with OpenXR over VD alone, but it needs tinkering with the registry. I never tried it because SteamVR runs OpenXR just fine.

 

I would be happy if I could launch Virtual Desktop or Streaming Assistant without SteamVR forcing its launch/room environment in VR and the SteamClient/Store loading in the background eating ressources. I don't need either, I don't buy games on Steam, Pico has a nice VR Environment and Virtual Desktop doesn't need the SteamVR Room to run.

Now I launch the Pico, start and connect Virtual Desktop, mirror my desktop and launch DCS VR via Desktop shortcut. Now Steam Room environment pops up and I can't see what's going on, hopefully at one point I see DCS World launching in the SteamVR environment and now I have four(!) layers of application environment: Pico VR environment, Virtual Desktop, SteamVR environment (not just the runtime), and finally DCS World with the VR hangar and Game screen... From which I can actually start the simulation in VR.

If I close DCS I am now in the Steam Environment with a Store I don't need or want and need to close to get back to my mirrored desktop and from there I can actually close VD and now I am back in the Pico VR environment.

Any option to eliminate the SteamVR environment (not the runtime/composer working in the background) and get rid of the Steam Store and client, is highly appreciated.

[Rogue Trooper]

Open XR gave me a massive performance boost!!!

I now run at 60 Hz locked in DCS and it runs lovely....... Thanks ED!

Edited June 12, 2023 by Rogue Trooper

[mbucchia]

8 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

What exactly did they say? Source?

I heard this statement too but unclear how reliable. 

This was posted on my Discord as a screenshot from some Pico forum I think? (Not my post)

EDIT: Reverse-engineered from the screenshots: https://developer-global.pico-interactive.com/community/post/7238474317217398789

My guess is it will be based on Monado perhaps? (That's the runtime they use on Android).

Monado support on Windows has not really been useful, but I keep hearing it's supposed to get massive upgrades soon. And I know of a couple of vendors currently porting their streaming solutions as Monado drivers.

Edited June 13, 2023 by mbucchia

[RealDCSpilot]

@mbucchia Hmm, well, if the Pico forum is the source it could also be a translation misunderstanding. For their Android SDK's they also had OpenXR API versions for Unity and Unreal devkits, but removed them recently. They were never been updated since September last year and only the native Android OpenXR API devkit remains.
However, what VR runtime a user is running is not of ED's concern, they only have to provide VR API support.

Edited June 13, 2023 by RealDCSpilot

[RealDCSpilot]

@shagrat If you mean Steam VR Home, you can disable it in SteamVR settings. From there you only get the simple 360° environment which is no ressource hog at all.

[mbucchia]

8 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

@mbucchia Hmm, well, if the Pico forum is the source it could also be a translation misunderstanding. For their Android SDK's they also had OpenXR API versions for Unity and Unreal devkits, but removed them recently. They were never been updated since September last year and only the native Android OpenXR API devkit remains.
However, what VR runtime a user is running is not of ED's concern, they only have to provide VR API support.

 

I think we all agree the question is poorly asked. But that doesn't matter, the results speak for themselves and I think OpenVR support will be gone for good now (or rather will not be revived into MT).

[Avalon66]

Openxr MT due to improved performance but for me a little less of clarity

overall very satisfied 

[Silver_]

My OpenXR libraries were recently updated using OpenComposite. What I don't know is if this update affects the DCS MT libraries in any way, since DCS MT has it natively or by changing the question: is it possible to make DCS MT use these?

[mbucchia]

7 hours ago, Silver_ said:

My OpenXR libraries were recently updated using OpenComposite. What I don't know is if this update affects the DCS MT libraries in any way, since DCS MT has it natively or by changing the question: is it possible to make DCS MT use these?

MT will Not use OpenComposite, and that's a GOOD thing.

[JIMJAM]

Been simming since Microprose F-19, flown every sim/computer combination since. I have 2 degrees, 4 type ratings.

That said... I have NO IDEA what any of the last 3 pages means hahahaha..

Bought my VR headset from Steam. I click run and see what picture/performance or if DCS/MSFS even runs. Somedays great and its the best thing since sticky movable sunscreens to being a product of satan himself. So far every experiment/change I attempt ruins what I have. Lots and lots of placebo/snake oil salesmen in flight sims with the Holy Grails only a few mouse clicks away.

So hurry up and fix it haha...

 

[dburne]

25 minutes ago, JIMJAM said:

Been simming since Microprose F-19, flown every sim/computer combination since. I have 2 degrees, 4 type ratings.

That said... I have NO IDEA what any of the last 3 pages means hahahaha..

Bought my VR headset from Steam. I click run and see what picture/performance or if DCS/MSFS even runs. Somedays great and its the best thing since sticky movable sunscreens to being a product of satan himself. So far every experiment/change I attempt ruins what I have. Lots and lots of placebo/snake oil salesmen in flight sims with the Holy Grails only a few mouse clicks away.

So hurry up and fix it haha...

 

 

Well not sure what would need fixing. DCS in MT running Open XR  is performing now the best it ever has in VR. So they are making progress, and MT is still considered beta so hopefully more improvements to come. Should be exciting times ahead. 

[WipeUout]

1 hour ago, JIMJAM said:

Been simming since Microprose F-19, flown every sim/computer combination since. I have 2 degrees, 4 type ratings.

That said... I have NO IDEA what any of the last 3 pages means hahahaha..

Bought my VR headset from Steam. I click run and see what picture/performance or if DCS/MSFS even runs. Somedays great and its the best thing since sticky movable sunscreens to being a product of satan himself. So far every experiment/change I attempt ruins what I have. Lots and lots of placebo/snake oil salesmen in flight sims with the Holy Grails only a few mouse clicks away.

So hurry up and fix it haha...

Do yourself a favor, follow the instruction in the first two posts here:

This could improve considerably your experience with your Valve index.

[gcze]

I use SteamVR without OpenXR for proper reprojection. There are terrible artifacts in OpenXR with reprojection, regardless of settings and frame times. DCS with only OpenXR = "no go" for me and absolutely deal breaker. That's why I only fly with the st version. If ST will be removed without openvr support in MT my DCS adventure will be over.

Edited August 5, 2023 by gcze

[mbucchia]

10 hours ago, gcze said:

I use SteamVR without OpenXR for proper reprojection. There are terrible artifacts in OpenXR with reprojection, regardless of settings and frame times. DCS with only OpenXR = "no go" for me and absolutely deal breaker. That's why I only fly with the st version. If ST will be removed without openvr support in MT my DCS adventure will be over.

 

You can use SteamVR via OpenXR too. That's two things that aren't mutually exclusive. 

[Marshallman]

On 5/31/2023 at 5:06 PM, robgraham said:

OpenXR, it's natively supported by WMR and SteamVR allowing for the use of either API, it runs a lot smoother for the reverb through the WMR native interface.

Like mbucchia I think there needs to be slightly better wording on the question and or maybe an explanation as some people honestly do not understand how their VR works they just know they use SteamVR or the mixed reality portal etc.

Fairly certain though that almost all headsets now support OpenXR either natively in their own runtimes or using SteamVR.

 

Thanks just picked up a Reverb G2 V2 yesterday, however the Power lead for the adaptor wasnt sent.... with the rest. frustrating first class post tomorrow apprently...Hoping for a lot more than my Quest 2 

[Nodak]

Standard 19.5 volt 45W laptop power adapter.

[jurinko]

I have finally found the best combination of settings for me: Nvidia 4080/5600x/64GB RAM/HP Reverb G2

 

- MT icon with usual --force_enable_VR --force_OpenXR comment

- OpenXR runtime in SteamVR settings set to SteamVR (if set to OpenXR, reprojection and picture quality is worse, albeit performance better)

- in OpenXR toolkit, System tab/Reprojection set to Default

- in OpenXR tools, reprojection switched to Best frame rate and ticked two options bellow (one "disable flow.." for nvidia cards and "prefer fps over latency")

- in-game OpenXR toolkit, fps throttling set to 90 (all other numbers lead to stutter)

- i have openxr tools res at 100%, in-game PD 1.0

- in SteamVR everything at default, motion smoothing off, per application DCS disabled.

 

The trick is to switch reprojection in OpenXR tools and let it Default at OpenXR tookit, plus throttling the frame rate at certain number.

In Il-2, the same settings but throttling at 45 fps and use OpenXR runtime.

 

 

[mbucchia]

1 hour ago, jurinko said:

The trick is to switch reprojection in OpenXR tools and let it Default at OpenXR tookit, plus throttling the frame rate at certain number.

I doubt it, because if you set SteamVR as your OpenXR runtime, then neither settings you pointed out make any difference. 

OpenXR Tools for Windows Mixed Reality only affects the Windows Mixed Reality OpenXR runtime, and not the SteamVR one.

OpenXR Toolkit "Motion Reprojection" settings are only displayed if your OpenXR runtime is set to Windows Mixed Reality, and not SteamVR. 

So you took a wrong turn somewhere, either you are not using SteamVR OpenXR as you mentioned at the beginning, or you are mistaken that the motion reprojection settings that you mentioned make any difference. 

Edited August 22, 2023 by mbucchia

[jurinko]

Might be, but it makes a hell of difference this way. If I switch off reprojection in openxr tools, the reprojection info disappears in the toolkit completely but the reprojection is still on (strange, as it is switched off everywhere). But it runs worse than if enabling it in oxr tools.

I believe I run openxr/steamvr mode as wmr complains at startup about openxr not being blablah and suggesting a fix.

Edited August 22, 2023 by jurinko

[mbucchia]

1) the setting in OpenXR Tools for WMR has no effect if running SteamVR. Period.

2) the settings for motion reprojection in OpenXR Toolkit only appear if you are running Windows Mixed Reality OpenXR, they will not appear if you are running SteamVR OpenXR.

one or more of your assertions are incorrect.

[VC]

Realise I'm in a huge minority here, but I voted SteamVR + OpenVR. Recently discovered that OpenXR + SteamVR runtime causes me lots of issues with frame drops and periods of intense stutter that sometimes the game won't recover from. I have to use SteamVR as the runtime because my headset is SteamVR native (Vive Pro). It would be a real shame if a few people were left behind unable to use MT, if it can't support OpenVR.

[dburne]

4 hours ago, VC said:

Realise I'm in a huge minority here, but I voted SteamVR + OpenVR. Recently discovered that OpenXR + SteamVR runtime causes me lots of issues with frame drops and periods of intense stutter that sometimes the game won't recover from. I have to use SteamVR as the runtime because my headset is SteamVR native (Vive Pro). It would be a real shame if a few people were left behind unable to use MT, if it can't support OpenVR.

 

Strange I can not imagine why a Vive Pro would not run in Open XR. Not saying it can but just seems odd.

[SrSosio]

I just added the -force_enable_VR -force_OpenXR commands to both my ST and MT shortcuts, but it's still opening SteamVR. Am I doing something wrong? should I uninstall SteamVR?