SA-342 Gazelle 2023 "FM" Update

[MAXsenna]

Regarding S342 FM, I changed my binding in the Options, Controls Icon on the home screen of DCS. That sorted out a lot of my problems, so I thought, what about the other helicopters? I've always changed controls in the game, ESC, adjust Controls..... Mistake really, I then when through all my Helo's and re-bound the controls. They ALL gave me better control after that. Proves we are always learning and if you've never done it before, I suggest you try it.

What does better control mean?
I've never seen any difference.

Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Hiob]

On 8/6/2023 at 2:43 PM, flyingscotsman said:

Regarding S342 FM, I changed my binding in the Options, Controls Icon on the home screen of DCS. That sorted out a lot of my problems, so I thought, what about the other helicopters? I've always changed controls in the game, ESC, adjust Controls..... Mistake really, I then when through all my Helo's and re-bound the controls. They ALL gave me better control after that. Proves we are always learning and if you've never done it before, I suggest you try it.

Where you select to do your bindings doesn't make a difference. It just can't. What probably happened is, that you reset some curves on your axis' when you rebound them. Which is the biggest impact on the feel of the FM, apart from the FM itself.

[MAXsenna]

Where you select to do your bindings doesn't make a difference. It just can't. What probably happened is, that you reset some curves on your axis' when you rebound them. Which is the biggest impact on the feel of the FM, apart from the FM itself.

My thoughts exactly!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[flyingscotsman]

Hi MAXsenna, 

                                 Your probably right, I couldn't see why it would make any difference, but as it worked, I'd assumed it was the way to do it. Cheers

[MAXsenna]

Hi MAXsenna, 
                                 Your probably right, I couldn't see why it would make any difference, but as it worked, I'd assumed it was the way to do it. Cheers

Oh, it's nothing wrong with doing it that way. I often tinker with the keybinds from the main menu, I just wondered how the controls became "better", but it makes sense that some curves were deleted in your new config, because the previous recommendation for the setup of the Gazelle, had some pretty radical curves.

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[FlankerKiller]

On 8/3/2023 at 10:25 AM, Hiob said:

Nice! 

But what I really meant was, I'd love to see real live footage of a Gazelle (or an Apache for that matter) that do overhead maneuvers. 

That you can do all kinds of stuff with DCS modules that isn't really real world applicable is out of question! (Which doesn't necessarily mean, it is unrealistic, but that the maintenance crew would kill you!) 

There is tons of footage of the Apache rolling and doing split S ish maneuvers. They more roll about 120 degrees and pull down. you loose altitude fast. I can perfectly replicate this in DCS. 

On 8/3/2023 at 9:21 AM, Holbeach said:

You can't straight roll a Gazelle because it has a floppy rotor and any negative G will destroy it, unlike a B 105 which has a solid rotor and can take up to -1 G.

You can barrel roll a Gazelle, (in DCS), providing you keep G on all the way round.

 

..

Thank you that was exactly what I was looking for. 

[flyingscotsman]

Ref almost any kind of Barrel Roll in the Gazelle, the one thing I recall was how light and 'flimsy' it was, you could pick it up by the tail, on wet grass and turn it. The floppy blades would probably depart in all directions about 1/2 way round, turning that into a terminal dive. I recall there were a few deaths in small helo's in the USA over the past years because someone had said you could do a negative g manouver, but it was hard to recover from. Some instructors went out and tried it with the students, the blades were found to have bent and touched, just before the helo's disintergrated and the FAA had to step in and say the manouver was not safe.

[MAXsenna]

18 minutes ago, flyingscotsman said:

Some instructors went out and tried it with the students, the blades were found to have bent and touched, just before the helo's disintergrated and the FAA had to step in and say the manouver was not safe.

Good grief! You serious? Well, I guess nominations for the Darwin Awards were in order.  

[flyingscotsman]

Correction, the manouvre caused by what they called a 'mast bump' which chopped the tail off, I can see that being likely if you, say, push the stick forward or backwards really hard. It was on a Utube video sadly & then I read there had been a spate of these. Hence "There are old pilots and bold pilots, there are no old bold Pilots"

[Kazputin]

On 8/15/2023 at 8:26 PM, flyingscotsman said:

Correction, the manouvre caused by what they called a 'mast bump' which chopped the tail off, I can see that being likely if you, say, push the stick forward or backwards really hard. It was on a Utube video sadly & then I read there had been a spate of these. Hence "There are old pilots and bold pilots, there are no old bold Pilots"

This happens in the UH1H in-game- if you drop off the Burj Al-Arab landing pad too fast, you put negative G on your rotor and it makes a fast exit from the helo  
It doesn't like negative Gs!

[vladimusmaximus]

So I really didn't love the old Gazelle. This FM is definitely a step in the right direction, but there is definitely some very strange behaviour and power stuff happening. I suspect there is still much work and fine tuning to be done.

[vladimusmaximus]

On 7/31/2023 at 2:42 PM, flyingscotsman said:

Hi, 

Been using the Gazelle since day it was released, have had some minor problems with control, most of my own making. However, since the update last week I'm totally out of control

Using Hotas joystick, with throttle, using throttle as collective, right side, Throttle left side.  It has always kinda 'leapt' into the air, and a couple of weeks back it was not so jumpy, great.

But the last update happened, I only have to move the collective a few millimeters and I'm 20 feet up, not only that, it is oscillating wildly like a pendulum, I can get it level with right rudder for a few seconds but any movement of the joystick and the oscillation get worse, I've just had my first inverted few seconds before I exploded into the tarmac.  Joystic has x/y deadzone 4 and slider at 10, thats worked fine as I previously mentioned.....can we put this back to the previous settings? Flew in the Gazelle in Northern Ireland a few times, as talking freight, really enjoyed it, it was much faster than the Scout...showing my age.

Identical to what is happening to me, I suspect I need to adjust my saturation and axis settings.

Although I did just have to rebind from scratch but yea it's unflyable, as it stands with my base settings.

[hermes7226]

Hi all! I wanted to ask if it is possible to disable the automatic control system now, and does the disabling of the system affect the behavior of the helicopter?

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Well after 2 1/2 months with new FM, I am comfortable with it and more or less it is under control. But! I am sorry. It sucks! It just does not feel real at all. It flies bad, it feels bad. it feels wrong. I am judging it against UH-1H, Ah-64D, and KA-50III. I get it s a small light helicopter, but its not that light. Right now , it feels like dragonfly in the windstorm.

First wrong is roll axis. The helicopter is not behaving as it is hanging from rotor center CG, but as as if it is balanced on stick on bottom of fuselage. This behavior is most present and most dangeroous during ETL transition from 12 to 20 KIAS with nose into wind.

Second wrong is excessive authority of tail rotor. It is sharp and unrealistic. Fenestron suppoused to have low authority at low deflections , increasing on a steep curve with larger pedal deflection. But not as sharp as it is currently implemented. basically a tiny pressure like change in rudder causes sharp abrupt yaw that appears to violate physics as tail feels like it has no inertial momentum. Its too much. It feels wrong. How deflection is read and filtered is likewise faulty, though that may be my Thrusmaster pedals. But when at 1/3 to 1/2 deflection in either direction, there is excessive 'noise' in how amount of pedals is read. The bar in control overlay dances randomly. That input make tail of Gazelle dance a bit. Makes aiming weapons  difficult.

In real world , the fenestron is disliked by American helicopter pilots , who consider it a safety issue. Note that UH-72 Lakota, a variant of EC-142 , foregoes fenestron. Bell Invictus armed recon helicopter, likewise, foregoes fenestron for traditional tailrotor.

 

Third wrong is skid friction, when helicopter is light on skids. The friction between skids and ground, makes helicopter feels like its on a sling shot when it initially picks up. A particularly hazardous condition is if you land with one skid on tarmac and another skid on grass or ground. The differential friction, if there is one, makes dynamic rollover much more likely.

 

I am sorry. But I hope its improved. Right now Gazelle FM feels bad. 

Attached is a SouthAtlantic Mission. I use it for helicopter flight training. Wind and turbulence is moderate to low.

Cheers

SouthAtlantic.miz

[Moxica]

I just updated my gear, and got better framerate/zero jerky, and the Gazelle started to shine even more.
-One of the joyful things are the thin skin that let sounds through.
Hearing all explotions and gunfire makes for some dramatic atmosphere, and adrenalinetrigging situations.
For some minutes yesterday, it was my favourite experience with DCS.

[Lace]

On 9/18/2023 at 9:45 PM, DmitriKozlowsky said:

The helicopter is not behaving as it is hanging from rotor center CG, but as as if it is balanced on stick on bottom of fuselage.

It's funny you say that, but that's exactly the feeling many students describe the first time flying a very light helicopter (like an R22/44) - like balancing on the head of a pin.

[RealDCSpilot]

@DmitriKozlowsky

I'm not able to comprehend your reports of the new Gaz's behaviour on your end. The way you describe it actually sounds more like the old FM version.
Please have a look at this:

This video is made with probably the best current available input hardware for helicopters and shows that the new FM works pretty well compared to the previous state. You can clearly see that the weight is(!) hanging on the main rotor now and it's not(!) rolling like an airplane like before.
I suspect something is heavily wrong on your end. I recommend resetting all your axis curves to linear and please check your hardware for faulty inputs. I also recommend disabling the trim option for pedals in special settings, better get used to hold the pedals in place because this could get confusing pretty quick with the abstraction of spring centered trimming logic.

[MAXsenna]

40 minutes ago, RealDCSpilot said:

I suspect something is heavily wrong on your end. I recommend resetting all your axis curves to linear and please check your hardware for faulty inputs. I also recommend disabling the trim option for pedals in special settings, better get used to hold the pedals in place because this could get confusing pretty quick with the abstraction of spring centered trimming logic.

I thinks it's futile. Don't really mean to be harsh, but this user have a history of having issues with helicopter modules, and refusing to follow well meant tips and recommendations.
I also suspect faulty hardware and hardware setup. This is a track where something happens, I could easily take over @~0:42

And that is with this "mod", and if I can easily plink tanks without the need to hover everyone should be able to.

[Opal 4-1]

20 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

I need a stick extension for rotary......

Max..... 'hold my beer' !!!

Brilliant!  Now that is awesome. 

[dsc106]

Hi all, I am curious about others thoughts here. I think the new FM is a huge improvement but the module still lacks to me. The helicopter just feels dead and lifeless in terms of immersive tactile feedback.

playing in VR with a buttkicker and Virpil CM3 dry clutch, collective, etc. I have all of the modules and this is the only one that feels very docile in terms of feedback.

i get no sensation of the motor working hard when I put it into challenging positions, no real feedback that lets me know when I’m struggling to maintain lift or about to enter VRS, cockpit shake is not much of a thing.

i wish I had better language to describe this but while the FM now feels much better, the module itself does not really feel real in anyway. I can completely lose myself in the Huey, for example, but I am painfully aware I’m playing a video game when it comes to the Gazelle.

i am hoping the developer can give us some better feedback and make this thing feel more “alive”. And I am even more hopeful that this lifeless feeling is not present in the Kiowa, because I am extremely excited for that aircraft and will be let done if it feels “blah” like the gazelle currently does and cannot live up to the bar ED has set on the other helicopters.

[RealDCSpilot]

@dsc106 I'm on a jetseat pad with Simshaker for Aviators and i get all the haptic feedback like on the other modules. In USB mode it is data driven by DCS telemetry and not running with game audio input only.

[dsc106]

I get the haptic feeeback, I didn’t say it wasn’t there, I said the total feeling - even with all of my hardware - pales in comparison to the other helicopters. There is a lack of aliveness between all forms of feedback… deacceleration and coming to an OGE hover, for example. It might be behaving technically right on FM, but it feels like nothing - feels like playing a video game or flying a toy, vs feeling and seeing the stress on the airframe through a combination of auditory, visual, and haptic cues that fully communicate a sense of “aliveness.”

This applies to all maneuvers and scenarios as far as I can tell. A general lack of cockpit vibration, atmospheric turbulence feedback, sound design, etc. You don’t feel the motor chug or work, you can’t “feel” the stress of a hard maneuver, etc like you can in the other modules.

I am sorry that my description is not better, but as I said, the tactile feel isn’t immersive like the other modules are, even though the FM is now miles better. I am hoping this element can be improved as well, as it is nearly as important as the FM itself.  

Edited October 24, 2023 by dsc106

[Whirley]

I am no real pilot.

But what felt weird to me about the new flight model is the way the helicopter locks into a new attitude after changing input. For instance it would fly with a slight tilt to the side and feel locked in that attitude until you change input.

Is that the augmentation system or is that inaccurate? It feels as if it had a fly-by-wire computer control.

After changing cyclic or collective it would be dynamic for a moment and then it would be like on rails.

Maybe the short moment comes frlm the engine modelling and the FADEC doing its thing until things are balanced again. But it feels extremely balanced.

Haven't tried it again since the flight model update because it still felt weird to me. Different because of the way the engine has to catch up, but still weird.

[Ramsay]

4 hours ago, Whirley said:

Is that the augmentation system or is that inaccurate?

The default SAS mode works to maintain the Gazelle's (trimmed) attitude using inputs from the gyro.

AFAIK the altitude and speed SAS sub modes (that use the pitch channel to maintain the selected parameter) are WIP and their use is not recommended at this time.

This is an example of a "similar" SAS/Autopilot fitted to civilian AS332L Super Puma

Quote

How to use the AS332L Autopilot and Trim system

If you take nothing else away from this chapter, at least use the following maxims as you develop your flying technique on the AS 332L.
• Provided the Autopilot is engaged and fully serviceable, it is recommended to fly with hands and feet away from controls.
• The handling pilot should keep hands and feet on the controls when the aircraft is on the ground anyway, but especially when the Autopilot is engaged.

When handling the aircraft:
• Always trim to required pitch attitude.
• Make gradual pitch and roll attitude changes via the 4-way switch on the cyclic.
• Major large pitch and roll attitude changes using “Stick and Beep” method.
• It is recommended that the aircraft is trimmed to “wings level” in roll - especially IMC. Any turns should be made against the artificial “feel” springs so that if the pilot becomes disoriented, letting go of the cyclic should result in the aircraft righting itself to “wings level” again.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Ramsay

[Whirley]

10 minutes ago, Ramsay said:

The SAS master/default mode works to maintain the Gazelle's (trimmed) attitude using inputs from the gyro.

AFAIK the altitude and speed SAS sub modes (that use the pitch channel to maintain the selected parameter) are WIP and their use is not recommended at this time.

This is an example of a "similar" SAS/Autopilot fitted to civilian AS332L Super Puma

Thanks, so maybe it is mostly correct with SAS and just feels weird to me. Probably because it has less inertia than the Apache, Hip, Hind and Huey. After all many people seem to see a major improvement.

I also fly springless and never trim (yaw channel off in Hind, but stability on on everything else in those who have) so maybe I was fighting the SAS at the time I tried the new flight model.