SA-342 Gazelle 2023 "FM" Update

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, grim_reaper68 said:

Personnally with that setup mine still roll violently to the right. I need to put the stick between 1/4 and the half to the left to make a smooth hovering takeoff.

Wind? The above is with zero wind.

 

[Kinkkujuustovoileipä]

On 6/18/2023 at 8:04 PM, Moxica said:

The spin often comes from a change in collective. Certain points/posistions triggers jerky torque effect. As if rotors "jump" into a much higher alpha.
-With the fact that there is no lift on the first 50-55% of the collective when on ground, that point might be around there.
And the Auto hover light remain on wether it has authority or not. I suspect it should go dark when inactive.
And as you said; auto slave can only adjust track to the right.

 

• Do not use the autohover functions, they are buggy and are in process of being redone.
• Autopilot lights will be yellow (top) when out of conditions, green (bottom) when in condition and active.
• Jerky torque effect is caused by you moving the collective too rapidly and surging the engine. Maintain smooth collective movements.
• Remember that pedal input also affects torque, and collective input affects yaw.

[grim_reaper68]

The CSV works on the cyclic, not perfectly but it works. It's quiet easier to use as before, cause it engages automatically when the conditions are met. Sometime it disengage itself just because you're adjusting the tail rotor to align the target. Maybe it comes from the variation of torque. 

[Moxica]

11 hours ago, Kinkkujuustovoileipä said:

• Do not use the autohover functions, they are buggy and are in process of being redone.
• Autopilot lights will be yellow (top) when out of conditions, green (bottom) when in condition and active.
• Jerky torque effect is caused by you moving the collective too rapidly and surging the engine. Maintain smooth collective movements.
• Remember that pedal input also affects torque, and collective input affects yaw.

Thank you for the clarification.
I still gonna use the autohover, because it have worked fine for me in so many occations. (And it is a "must" when using the periscope)
I only had some problems identifying whether it was active or not.
I have noticed that the lights seem to have two positions: upper and lower.
And I have come to believe that when it "drops" to lower pos. it is inactive.
 

[YoYo]

In my opinion the model needs a hotfix from @Polychop Simulations when it comes to FM and I hope we won't have to wait a few more years for that ;).

The current model seems a bit too heavy, or the engine is too weak. It was mentioned here before. It's not a Mi-8, and more or less it started flying like a transport helicopter. Gazelle is still a recon, a dragonfly helicopter. It lacked the dynamics it had. I've seen Gazelle several times at air shows and I'm afraid that the model with the current FM engine power?) would not be able to perform all these figures as fast as this one in real life.

Another issue is the very bad take off behavior. The model tends to .... tip over to the right. At the same time, this is not a real behavior, the model should possibly start turning, then we should counter it with the pedals, of course, but do not fall over! It is enough to do the same on the other helicopter models in DCS and none has such a strong twisting effect but in the vertical axis. Now there is an instantaneous coup and what's important even moving a stick to left doesn't help much. This is very strange and unreal. If in real life the helicopter behaved so unstable, it would not be allowed to fly by any commission. I'll make a video later and post it here.

Overall, it's nice that something is happening and that changes have been made, but it still needs improvement, I hope we'll see fixes in the next DCS patch OBs. 

[Moxica]

9 minutes ago, YoYo said:

Another issue is the very bad take off behavior. The model tends to .... tip over to the right.

There is a critical point, where the (right) undercarriage still has contact with the ground during takeoff. Get past that point a little faster.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Moxica

[YoYo]

8 minutes ago, Moxica said:

There is a critical point, where the (right) undercarriage still has contact with the ground during takeoff. Get past that point a little faster.

 

That could be it, but even if the stick is to the left, it still has this effect. I've noticed that adding power faster is a solution but it seems unrealistic at the current level anyway, the effect is just too strong. We also have the UH-1 on skids and here is ok.

[Hiob]

Whilst I have no problem taking off (I needed a period of adjusting though), I agree that the friction of the skids - especially when already partially unloaded - is too high.

I won't judge the flight dynamic. I don't know how nimble it should feel from the inside. When seeing Air-show footage of the Gazelle (not to mention the Bo-105), I kind of agree though.

The comparison with the Hip is misleading imho. The Hip is a very powerful helicopter. A Gazelle with a full tank, two people on board an the sight mounted has about the same power to weight ratio as a Hip with a full tank and no payload. And while the Gazelle with this configuration already is close to or above its max rated takeoff weight, meaning, that she is probably mostly flown at her max TO weight, I bet the Hip is mostly flown far from it.

[heloguy]

One thing to note, I imagine any Gazelle at an airshow performance is not loaded for combat.  It probably isn't even close to being over a half a tank of fuel.

[Hiob]

1 minute ago, heloguy said:

One thing to note, I imagine any Gazelle at an airshow performance is not loaded for combat.  It probably isn't even close to being over a half a tank of fuel.

And you are most probably right!

[leonsilver]

All I ask is that the flight model be as realistic as possible. If the Gazella behaves in life like it does now in DCS, then it should stay that way and only change if the current one is really not good. But don't change because we cry on the forum..

[Hiob]

Just now, leonsilver said:

All I ask is that the flight model be as realistic as possible. If the Gazella behaves in life like it does now in DCS, then it should stay that way and only change if the current one is really not good. But don't change because we cry on the forum..

Certainly not for "I want it faster, mi mi mi......", but some feedback can also hint at flaws. Would be the first FM that came out perfectly on the first try. I have good faith in the developers to work it out eventually! As far as I'm concerned, it feels much more like a Helicopter now and much closer to the ingame benchmarks, and I'm happy with it! 

[heloguy]

I just tried no armament, no doors, and 25% fuel.  Pretty nimble if you ask me.  As far as tilting to the right, translating tendency would push the aircraft left.  You'll notice that you need to put in right cyclic as you pick it up to a hover to counteract left drift.  This left drift is due to the tail rotor pushing the aircraft as it increases thrust (translating tendency).  Therefore, you end up with a right skid low hover.  If you don't have enough power in to hover, you will be putting the majority of the aircraft weight on the right skid.  Not managed correctly, this condition can lead to dynamic rollover.

Edited June 22, 2023 by heloguy

[Rudel_chw]

3 minutes ago, heloguy said:

This left drift is due to the tail rotor pushing the aircraft as it increases

 

I have read that the Gazelle's center of gravity is forward and right, thus it requires cyclic aft and left when hovering. 

[heloguy]

11 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

I have read that the Gazelle's center of gravity is forward and right, thus it requires cyclic aft and left when hovering. 

Maybe this is purposeful to counteract translating tendency.  The CG being forward and right explains the right skid low hover, and tilt to the right on takeoff.

 

Also, while not knowing the accuracy of CG shift in the Gazelle, I do know based on the helicopters I've flown, center-of-gravity (CG) is based on aircraft loading, and is not set based on the airframe.  If the CG is naturally forward and right on the Gazelle, how much forward and right would be based on loadout, and fuel.

Edited June 22, 2023 by heloguy

[Hiob]

At least out ingame Gazelle needs left-aft cyclic for take-off (and hover). Right cyclic would result in immidiate roll over to the right.

[heloguy]

4 minutes ago, Hiob said:

At least out ingame Gazelle needs left-aft cyclic for take-off (and hover). Right cyclic would result in immidiate roll over to the right.

Yeah, sorry, I think I was translating what the helicopter was doing to what I thought my hand was doing.  It would be nice to know if the right skid low is due to CG, or an intentional tilt of the main transmission.

Edited June 22, 2023 by heloguy

[Hiob]

4 minutes ago, heloguy said:

Yeah, sorry, I think I was translating what the helicopter was doing to what I thought my hand was doing.  It would be nice to know if the right skid low is due to CG, or an intentional tilt of the main transmission.

 

No problem.

In many Helicopters the tilt (both in lateral and longitudinal direction) of the main shaft and rotorhead is optimized for cruise flight. Meaning that the helicopter is in balance at cruise speed with a straight body orientation.

That comes with a slight tilt aft and sideways when hovering stationary. Wouldn't be surprising if it was the same for the gazelle.

[grim_reaper68]

On 6/21/2023 at 8:27 AM, Moxica said:

Thank you for the clarification.
I still gonna use the autohover, because it have worked fine for me in so many occations. (And it is a "must" when using the periscope)
I only had some problems identifying whether it was active or not.
I have noticed that the lights seem to have two positions: upper and lower.
And I have come to believe that when it "drops" to lower pos. it is inactive.
 

The lower (green light) is the engaged position. The upper is the active. It's like you turn your autohoover on, but it's not working because you're out of the conditions. Once in the flight conditions the CSV engage automatically. I think it is so. But maybe I'm wrong. You can fly with the CSV upper light on. And so far you're speed and vertical speed matches (less than X km/h and 1 m/s) the CSV will stop the Gazelle. It actually not works perfectly but made it. 

Hope I'm clear enough. 

[Moxica]

2 hours ago, grim_reaper68 said:

The lower (green light) is the engaged position. The upper is the active. It's like you turn your autohoover on, but it's not working because you're out of the conditions. Once in the flight conditions the CSV engage automatically. I think it is so. But maybe I'm wrong. You can fly with the CSV upper light on. And so far you're speed and vertical speed matches (less than X km/h and 1 m/s) the CSV will stop the Gazelle. It actually not works perfectly but made it. 

Hope I'm clear enough. 

Thank you.
But I've never seen green color; White in both upper, and lower pos.
Oh! And speed condition is less than 18 Km/h   

Edited June 22, 2023 by Moxica

[grim_reaper68]

I agree the colours are a little bit too flashy 

[RealDCSpilot]

Maybe the best IRL demonstration, but only one guy in the cockpit and of course - no weapons loadout. Can't tell how much fuel... it's hard to see. Use the mouse to look around, it's a 360° video. You can clearly see the moment where he tries to find the trim position for lift off (left and aft) and does force trim to center the cyclic to that position. Also very good to see is pedal input and cyclic movements needed to have stable behaviour while hovering and maneuvering near the ground.

 

[leonsilver]

I just love the new Gazelle! At first, the new FM was a bit strange, but once you get used to it, the machine gives you an amazing experience. Thanks Polychop!

[karasinicoff]

Dear Polychop

I have been try and try and try but this model is broken.

Have you ever try to fly with weapons? Gazelle is a light attack chopper not just for sightseeing.

It is not flyable properly in the battle field, not even able to fly and get altitudes.

I am very appreciate that you updates lots of things on Gazelle but please fix the engine model. 

Also unable to use Mistral as well, there are lots of bugs around.

I understand how hard to make it perfect since F 15E came out etc.. But this 342 model has been around many years.

please please fix it, mainly the engine issue. Clearly it is not right. 

Edited June 25, 2023 by karasinicoff

[Jenrick]

4 minutes ago, karasinicoff said:

It is not flyable properly in the battle field, not even able to fly and get altitudes.

Set your fuel to about 50-60% and see if that helps.  With rockets and cannon or dual HMG's, I can easily get over 200 kph in level flight.