SA-342 Gazelle 2023 "FM" Update

[yeti]

Thank you for your precious help

[Hiob]

A stick with a long throw and little recentering force generally helps with flying helicopters in DCS. Unfortunately the needs of jets and helos in this regard are pretty incompatible. Personally I optimized more towards helicopters, which makes flying jets a bit mushy - but the other way round makes flying choppers a pita…

[Moxica]

The Gazelle is this months winner! (Sinai's overhyped and underwhelming graphics need more time in the oven)
But I've merely scratched its surface, and killing armour with AG missiles.
Where can I learn more about the other (new) weapons?
(I just  could not get a single shot from the gun pods)   

Edited June 10, 2023 by Moxica

[Gizzy]

To me the FM is a great improvement. 

The SA 341/2 requires minimal cyclic input.  Your stick design and spring pressure if used will effect inputs required so advice from 1 guy may not work with another.

I set Y AXIS in DCS to 80% - NO CURVES.

Assign TRIM HAT to trim functions.

For me 3 quick nose down 'pushes' on the trim hat set just the right trim for take off.  Of course you can leave at centre and adjust with cyclic but for me trim works well.

Increase collective until light on the skids, keeping the nose where you want it, come to a 5' hover and you are ready to go.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Gizzy

[RealDCSpilot]

2 hours ago, karasinicoff said:

I try to fly the NEW gazelle today. Thanks Polychop for amazing updates.

However, she is no longer able to fight in helo dog fights and hunting jets.

I have shot down 500 jets in GS server with mistral but new flight model ruins all my skills.

I love the feeling about the new flight model which seems more realistic.

BUT!! the engine is way toooo weak . only 1450kg weight even struggle to move around.

Try to reach 100km/hour, it takes much longer than my 20 years old car.

All good but Engine power must be improved.

Also.. 50cal gun sound effect.. please, make it better

 

You should simply forget about this. You accumulated a lot of false muscle memory and have to get rid of it. Start fresh like it's a completely new DCS helicopter module (which it basically is now). For the first time in 7 years this thing acts like a heli and i highly doubt that the engine is to weak.
However, FFB trim is still badly broken, i hope this is going to be fixed quickly.

[heloguy]

I also suspect there is still something wrong with FFB trim, unless I haven't set it up correctly.  The "trimmer" switch releases the force gradient, which I assume is correct, but when I release the trimmer, the cyclic always goes back to center, which I suspect is wrong, because no other helicopter trimmer works this way.  I've tried swapping the FFB axes, and I've tried inverting both x, and y FFB axes, but the behavior remains the same.

 

I must admit, though, when taking off to a hover, the FM feels much better, and more natural.

[MAXsenna]

I also suspect there is still something wrong with FFB trim, unless I haven't set it up correctly.  The "trimmer" switch releases the force gradient, which I assume is correct, but when I release the trimmer, the cyclic always goes back to center, which I suspect is wrong, because no other helicopter trimmer works this way.  I've tried swapping the FFB axes, and I've tried inverting both x, and y FFB axes, but the behavior remains the same.
 
I must admit, though, when taking off to a hover, the FM feels much better, and more natural.

Does the stick move when you trim with the hat?

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[RealDCSpilot]

Yes it moves with the trim hat and this works somehow. The big problem is trim release, it's hard to describe but the stick "runs away" from every new trim position. Everytime you trim it for a new position it kind of multipies the x and y position value of the position you intended and the stick snaps further away from the intended position. It seems to have the exact same offset from the position before the trim. It's either a bug or a wrong concept.

Edited June 10, 2023 by RealDCSpilot

[kotor633]

I just got it today. I'm completely in the gazelle fever. What I have seen & tested so far is simply phenomenal! I'm just enjoying the Gazelle at the moment.

Thanks Polychop!

[daemon1808]

2 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

Yes it moves with the trim hat and this works somehow. The big problem is trim release, it's hard to describe but the stick "runs away" from every new trim position. Everytime you trim it for a new position it kind of multipies the x and y position value of the position you intended and the stick snaps further away from the intended position. It seems to have the exact same offset from the position before the trim. It's either a bug or a wrong concept.

 

THIS:

 

I have test it and it seems to have some kind of weight problem, that request max power at low speed/hover. Or maybe have I lost something?

Except that, I like it... seems very similar to the other helicopter flight models

 

[MADLOU1]

I agree that the FM is better. However, WE NEED MORE  CONTENT!! More instant missions, more missions, campaigns.  All the other helos have loads of content.

[MAXsenna]

Yes it moves with the trim hat and this works somehow. The big problem is trim release, it's hard to describe but the stick "runs away" from every new trim position. Everytime you trim it for a new position it kind of multipies the x and y position value of the position you intended and the stick snaps further away from the intended position. It seems to have the exact same offset from the position before the trim. It's either a bug or a wrong concept.

Thanks! I won't be able to test for a few weeks, hence why I asked.
What did observed before, and why I stopped flying the Gaz when I got an FFB stick. Every time I released the trim button, the stick would move exponentially away from where the trim position should be. And when the stick was at max deflection, the trim position indicator in the controls overlay would vanish. Now. If I forced the stick to the other side and clicked on the trim button repeatedly, it would eventually come back.
I noticed this exact behaviour in the free UH-60L module. And that dev is now part of PC it seems? Workaround was to use simFFB, and not configure the trim button in DCS, as others have mentioned.
So I agree. It's either a bug, (wrong math?), or wrong concept as you say.

Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Bremspropeller]

Thanks for the update guys! After adjustig to the new behaviour, I think it's flying 'easier' than before.

Makes me get even more excited about the Kiowa.

[Nevyn]

Yes much better, more enjoyable, my only question is, why are the pilots so fat? They look like my mother in law trying to fit into a small car.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

I was in the midst of free trialing this module when they upgraded the FM. This zippy bird now has a tendency to lose altitude (fully fueled and armed) if there is no translational lift. I haven't noticed any VRS effects yet. Auto hover is there but wonky. Is the white text for the autopilot speed/altitude gone from the controls indicator? How do Gazelle pilots know if those are in active hold apart from observing the speed and altitude numbers? 

Edited June 11, 2023 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

9 hours ago, MADLOU1 said:

I agree that the FM is better. However, WE NEED MORE  CONTENT!! More instant missions, more missions, campaigns.  All the other helos have loads of content.

We need an update to Devrim's English Gray Dash cockpit too.

Edited June 11, 2023 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[vsTerminus]

So I took the new Gazelle out for about an hour last night and wanted to say thank you for updating the FM. I honestly did not expect it to happen before the Kiowa and I'm thrilled that you decided to do it.

Previously my biggest issues were the control hypersensitivity and the way it held bank like a fixed wing aircraft. Both of those have been dealt with; It now flies like a helicopter should, and that's so awesome. For the first time I'm able to fly around the streets of Beirut and keep it between all the light posts without any trouble. I also found myself in VRS by surprise a couple times Nice work on the update, seriously.

With that said, there are a couple things I noticed that don't seem quite right to me that you might already be aware of...

1. The Gazelle should require some aft and right cyclic in a hover with calm winds, right? Well, right now it requires aft and left cyclic, but wants to roll right so hard that it still hangs right skid low. Something is generating a lot of right roll that probably shouldn't be. **Edit** Apparently this is correct. It just struck me as unusual for a clockwise rotating helicopter.

2. The engine still seems to be able to spool up and meet any demand I place on it instantaneously. Like, if I'm sitting on the ground and go from 0 to 100% collective in a split second, it should cause a significant drop in rotor RPM while the engine spools up and tries to deal with the increased demand, but instead the rotor RPM is maintained and it just launches straight up.

Oh, and unrelated to the FM, but the rotor disc sound seems to have a Flanging Effect that is really clearly audible, at least to my ears. Dunno if there's anything you can do about it but I don't hear it in the other helis.

Overall I think it's a really nice update and makes the Gazelle so much more enjoyable to fly, but there are some smaller issues that would be nice to get ironed out in future patches.

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by vsTerminus

[MADLOU1]

28 minutes ago, Nevyn said:

Yes much better, more enjoyable, my only question is, why are the pilots so fat? They look like my mother in law trying to fit into a small car.

That's why some have reported the engine is underpowered.  Must be those overweight pilots!

[RealDCSpilot]

@daemon1808 You may have to review your testing conditions. In the video i see the M variant with the big Viviane system mounted on top and 100% fuel? The Viviane sight alone comes with extra 800 pounds. In this configuration you are already operating at the borderline (over 4000 lbs) and no wonder the engine is under so much stress. In this config i need ~60% collective to get the skids of the ground which totally makes sense.
Please try something totally different, select the L variant and 50% fuel and check for "Civil Version" in the mission editor. This brings her down to ~ 3000 lbs and that is much more how she likes it. Don't forget that the module was a overpowered, weightless abomination for 7 years, basically everything was completely wrong the whole time. In this configuration i need ~ 45% collective to get her off the ground. This looks very good for me, the more i test it the more i like the new Gazelle...
General tip for all DCS helicopters: always take the amount of fuel you really need - weight is the enemy of every helicopter. 50% fuel is enough for almost everything unless you need to keep it in the air for hours or have to travel huge distances.
After looking into the weight thing more deeply i saw that removing the doors has no effect on weight, would be cool if this could make her loose some extra pounds...

Edited June 11, 2023 by RealDCSpilot

[RealDCSpilot]

@vsTerminus Yeah, the Long Wait is over now. I'm also really happy that this dark chapter is going to end. The Gazelle is such a cool aircraft, it's former depiction in DCS was very disrespectful against the real one.

8 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

the stick would move exponentially away from where the trim position should be

Yes, that is exactly what is happening.

[fencible]

On 6/9/2023 at 1:24 PM, jef32 said:

Hi. Impossible for me to enable stationary flight mode for taking the weapon officer place, since the update.

Yes, they have removed the auto-hover feature "for consideration". I noticed this too. You just can't use the air-to-ground missiles right now unless you have a human crew member, it seems. 

Still - the reworked flight model feels like a huge improvement to me - after I tinkered with the axis settings. This is a beautiful update and I am enjoying the flight model and flitting around the pyramids in new Sinai map. It is now possible to do really controlled delicate landings. I notice the chopper has become very weight sensitive - and this is a good thing.

I do hope they bring back the auto-hover feature to allow single players to use the air to ground missiles again, though...I know that it is a compromise to allow a single player to do both crew tasks, but - that was an important 'compromise' and it really raised the fun-factor for me.

Edited June 11, 2023 by fencible

[Teeps]

Are people talking about using the HOT missiles without auto-hover? I was doing that yesterday, it seemed easy so long as I trimmed the gazelle properly for hover.

[daemon1808]

3 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

@daemon1808 You may have to review your testing conditions. In the video i see the M variant with the big Viviane system mounted on top and 100% fuel? The Viviane sight alone comes with extra 800 pounds. In this configuration you are already operating at the borderline (over 4000 lbs) and no wonder the engine is under so much stress. In this config i need ~60% collective to get the skids of the ground which totally makes sense.
Please try something totally different, select the L variant and 50% fuel and check for "Civil Version" in the mission editor. This brings her down to ~ 3000 lbs and that is much more how she likes it. Don't forget that the module was a overpowered, weightless abomination for 7 years, basically everything was completely wrong the whole time. In this configuration i need ~ 45% collective to get her off the ground. This looks very good for me, the more i test it the more i like the new Gazelle...
General tip for all DCS helicopters: always take the amount of fuel you really need - weight is the enemy of every helicopter. 50% fuel is enough for almost everything unless you need to keep it in the air for hours or have to travel huge distances.
After looking into the weight thing more deeply i saw that removing the doors has no effect on weight, would be cool if this could make her loose some extra pounds...

 

Hi,

Yes, thanks for the advice. It have been noticed in the comments of my video also. Sounds logic to me, but we are used to get full fuel in the ME in all aircrafts. So I didn't realize that was the problem.

Today I will try again with less fuel load, and I'm sure that the overweight problem will be no more.

I really hope Polichop will say something about the problem with the rudder trim  because, having removed the autohover, is the only problem I got to take this beauty and play some good exploring and hunting missions.

[Moxica]

Cockpit looks a bit small, so I've set "Force IPD distance" = 55-57 under "VR"
That was an even  better experience for me.
 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Moxica

[scoobie]

It's great Gazelle is getting attention she deserves, though I have exactly same observations as vsTerminus.

This:

4 hours ago, vsTerminus said:

1. The Gazelle should require some aft and right cyclic in a hover with calm winds, right? Well, right now it requires aft and left cyclic (...)

This:

4 hours ago, vsTerminus said:

2. The engine still seems to be able to spool up and meet any demand I place on it instantaneously. Like, if I'm sitting on the ground and go from 0 to 100% collective in a split second, it should cause a significant drop in rotor RPM while the engine spools up and tries to deal with the increased demand, but instead the rotor RPM is maintained and it just launches straight up.

And this:

4 hours ago, vsTerminus said:

Oh, and unrelated to the FM, but the rotor disc sound seems to have a Flanging Effect that is really clearly audible