Feedback Thread F-14 Tomcat, Update 8th June 2023

[Bosun]

20 hours ago, Nealius said:

Are there waypoints already programmed in the mission? I've noticed that map marker steerpoints only work if there are already steerpoints in the system. If there are no steerpoints in the system it won't work. But I've only done it from the front seat with Jester. No idea from the back seat.

Hmm.  Perhaps - I'll test that more.  It's confusing because they show up as an option,but maybe that's the issue.

[Hummingbird]

Finally got back to flying in DCS after a long hiatus, and noticed something different about the F14 right away. Specifically it seems a lot more wobbly when maneuvering at higher than 15 units AoA, eventhough Im only using rudder for roll here and not applying any side stick movement. I recall previously being able to roll without wobble at high AoA when using just rudder. 

To me this is a big change to the FM, and it strikes me as odd to come so late. Was it really all wrong before and is it supposed to handle this poorly at high AoA when using just rudder for roll? Asking as it appears borderline pointless to try maneuvering at high AoA atm due to the unavoidable wobble. 

 

[Kula66]

This is the toned down version ... a few patches ago, it was far more pronounced.

[Hummingbird]

50 minutes ago, Kula66 said:

This is the toned down version ... a few patches ago, it was far more pronounced.

Odd that such a rather drastic change was added so late. Based on what Ive read, you should be able to roll at high AoA without wobble when using rudder. 

[Kula66]

I find if I keep the stick centred, so you don't stall the wing at high AOA, and just use rudder ... I've even increased the dead zone in the roll axes so I don't accidentally activate the spoilers. 

[jungleboy123]

On 6/9/2023 at 1:47 PM, IronMike said:

That is odd. I just tried it again, and the pitch is now back to normal and no blackout on my side. Maybe some settings are interfering, like input from the joystick trimming up, or something else, like a mod, etc?

Can anyone else confirm they are seeing blackouts on cat launch and abnormal pitch up followed by dive?

 

EDIT: I tried a few more times and indeed got a blackout as well, however the trim and pitch up after launch seemed fine. The blackout for me was also only brief and ended before getting airborne, I would say it happened mid-cat launch for maybe half a second - ish.

We'll investigate further.

 

I just checked on here to see if the blackout was an issue. Appears it is.

My issue is i not only get the blackout but also my landing gear can break and be unable to retract....

I've tried to reduce the airplanes weight, which helps with the landing wheel issue but still get the blackouts.

[Temetre]

Am 15.6.2023 um 07:35 schrieb Hummingbird:

Finally got back to flying in DCS after a long hiatus, and noticed something different about the F14 right away. Specifically it seems a lot more wobbly when maneuvering at higher than 15 units AoA, eventhough Im only using rudder for roll here and not applying any side stick movement. I recall previously being able to roll without wobble at high AoA when using just rudder. 

To me this is a big change to the FM, and it strikes me as odd to come so late. Was it really all wrong before and is it supposed to handle this poorly at high AoA when using just rudder for roll? Asking as it appears borderline pointless to try maneuvering at high AoA atm due to the unavoidable wobble. 

Yeah, ive noticed that as well, but wasnt sure about it because im not that experienced. 

Generally rudder seems to do very little at high AoA, didnt feel like it had much more effect than roll inputs. Above 20 AoA the pitch stability also seems to have suffered greatly, its much harder to keep the right pitch than before.

Id be curious, can someone enlighten us what generally changed? I knew there were changes especially around the transonic behaviour, which I do feel as well, it doesnt feel quite as stuck anymore at the Mach 1.2 barrier. But there wasnt really mention of low speed behaviours, I think, and its a pretty substantial difference.

[Nealius]

There is quite a substantial difference at slow speed that I'd like more info about as well. In Reflected's Speed and Angels Campaign the player is put through a slow-speed rudder turn exercise at high AoA. Before the updates the rudder was way too sensitive--even with a curve of 20 (which somewhat impeded my taxi turning ability). After setting 0 curves and the recent FM updates, in the same high AoA situation I'm pushing my pedals to max and getting almost zero rudder authority. 

[Temetre]

Flying a bit more, it seems like the more difficult high AoA-handling is directly connected to speed. Maybe not a surprise, considering high AoA are a slow speed (or high altitude?) thing. The plane still seems to rate and control quite effectively, maybe between 400-250 knots or so.

Before the F-14 at 250-150 knots felt a bit more like a Hornet; draggy, but you could keep control, even if it was very challenging to do so compared to the F-18. Now its a bit more like an F-16, where you more easily start to slip into a stall at slow speed/high AoAs. But while the F-16s FBW keeps it in a controlled stall of kinds, that seems less possible with the F-14 now.

Would be very curious to have some input from more experienced pilots or devs on what changed and how to deal best with the changes now.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Temetre

[Redliner7]

I thought i was the only one experiencing this. Completely unscientific.. But did we lose a few degrees of nose authority at full 30AOA with the last 2 FM updates? I know wing rock and transonic drag was moved around to be more realistic to match the charts.

I ask this because I used to be pretty even with my buddy in a Hornet by getting him slow and dancing on the stick and rudders, i was *just* able to hang with him in a 1 circle. And it could go either way in kills. For example i used to be able to nose over with rudders going slow vertical, or be able to squeeze just a few more degrees of nose attitude to get a shot off while really pouring on the AOA. Now he just dominates me and I can't seem to get the Cat to do what i think I was able to do with the high AOA stuff earlier in the year.

And man do rudders feel a lot less effective at high AOA...

Even on the deck where I used to dominate him in the 2 circle, I'm pretty much helpless now.

Maybe I've just flying poor BFM but it's been difficult fight in the Cat lately. If that's what the real jet is like than so be it - but i didn't see any notes and would like clarification or if it's just me.





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[fat creason]

The only areas of the model that have changed "recently" are thrust and drag, along with reducing the effectiveness of the yaw SAS at high AOA. An adjustment was made to the yaw SAS in 2021 that unintentionally eliminated wing rock, this bug was investigated and fixed while doing the FM performance work. Handling qualities changes have been minor, but the last of those were completed around 2020-2021 after extensive SME testing.

https://heatblur.se/fmupdate/

Edited June 18, 2023 by fat creason

[Redliner7]

The only areas of the model that have changed "recently" are thrust and drag, along with reducing the effectiveness of the yaw SAS at high AOA. An adjustment was made to the yaw SAS in 2021 that unintentionally eliminated wing rock, this bug was investigated and fixed while doing the FM performance work. Handling qualities changes have been minor, but the last of those were completed around 2020-2021 after extensive SME testing.
https://heatblur.se/fmupdate/

If you're reducing YAW SAS, doesn't that mean we're supposed to have more or less Rudder authority?

The rudders feels pretty ineffective at high AOA and pitch authority feels significantly reduced as well past 25 units.

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[Temetre]

The change Im feeling in the F-14B would be most likely coming with the big FM update coming to the B recently?

The "F-14 Flight Model Tuning - Part I" text does mention that it affects BFM performance as well, that its gonna be more accurate now. Its just not really telling what changed.

 

Maybe it just something like, theres an increase in drag at low speed/high AoA and that leads to flight surfaces becoming inefficient more quickly?

vor 8 Stunden schrieb fat creason:

along with reducing the effectiveness of the yaw SAS at high AOA

Thats interesting, maybe we should look closer if theres some initial adverse yawing or so? That could explain some loss of control, but if there is, then its so soft its hard to notice.

Otherwise the loss of pitch authority/stability at high AoA actually feels a bit as like the pitch SAS becomes less effective at keeping a pitch angle.

Tbh im a still bad pilot, so im never quite sure if my observations are correct or affected by other factors. But it seems like theres something quite different at low speed. I wonder if its a follow on effect of the yaw SAS being less effective in a high AoA turn.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Temetre

[fat creason]

On 6/17/2023 at 8:21 PM, Redliner7 said:

If you're reducing YAW SAS, doesn't that mean we're supposed to have more or less Rudder authority?

The rudders feels pretty ineffective at high AOA and pitch authority feels significantly reduced as well past 25 units.

No, the Yaw SAS logic has nothing to do with rudder authority. Hanging out above 25 units is not a flight regime you want to be in, pilots didn't do this in real life.

 

On 6/18/2023 at 3:03 AM, Temetre said:

The "F-14 Flight Model Tuning - Part I" text does mention that it affects BFM performance as well, that its gonna be more accurate now. Its just not really telling what changed.

 

Maybe it just something like, theres an increase in drag at low speed/high AoA and that leads to flight surfaces becoming inefficient more quickly?

Thats interesting, maybe we should look closer if theres some initial adverse yawing or so? That could explain some loss of control, but if there is, then its so soft its hard to notice.

Otherwise the loss of pitch authority/stability at high AoA actually feels a bit as like the pitch SAS becomes less effective at keeping a pitch angle.

Like I said above, the recent changes were purely performance updates other than tweaking the yaw SAS that was incorrectly suppressing wing rock. I've mentioned on the forums before that wing rock was always present in the model since the beginning. If you had ever turned off the Yaw SAS in any version before the FM update, you would see it immediately if excited above roughly 20 units. All I can really say is nothing you've mentioned here has changed, any "change" you're experiencing is likely a placebo effect thing or something else, but it's not any modifications I've made to the model itself. It's easy to make precise changes to flight models if you know what you're doing, and I can guarantee the latest update did not affect anything you're saying here.

 

On 6/18/2023 at 3:03 AM, Temetre said:

Tbh im a still bad pilot, so im never quite sure if my observations are correct or affected by other factors.

Well since you said it, let's roll with this explanation for now 

Edited June 19, 2023 by fat creason

[Indianajon]

On 6/18/2023 at 3:21 AM, Redliner7 said:

If you're reducing YAW SAS, doesn't that mean we're supposed to have more or less Rudder authority?

The rudders feels pretty ineffective at high AOA and pitch authority feels significantly reduced as well past 25 units.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk
 

If you were in a high aoa then wouldn't the body of the aircraft disrupt the airflow over the rudders and reduce there effectiveness? 

This is me asking a genuine question. Am I missing something on why the rudders should be more effective than they are other than they are just really big? Surely it would be an equivalent of flying at a much slower speed where the flying surfaces have less to bite.

[JupiterJoe]

No pylons (rails) for the Phoenix.  The loadout included one Sparrow behind the Aim-54's.  MP server.  Nellis.

Edited June 20, 2023 by JupiterJoe

[FR4GGL3]

I guess it really could be more realistic now. I remember some (youtube) stories of Okie in which he described that he had to hold the Stick with both Hands on low speed high AOA maneuvers. And he also said there was a point where he left roll SAS on all the time because the Tomcat didn't roll that good. Maybe I misunderstood something, but it would make sense by the way it behaves now.

But then again Victory205 stated that they turned roll SAS off as it should be... don't take it too serious. Play with it. It is not as if you are in danger like the real Pilots would have been if they simply played around.

Edited June 19, 2023 by FR4GGL3

[Redliner7]

Well since you said it, let's roll with this explanation for now 

Thank you for taking your time to respond and appreciate the hard work.

I'm not the only one reporting it, others feel there's something a little off too, but I also have no way to quantify my own experiences (or theirs) either.

You're right, i don't try to live at 25+ units at all, but if you end up in a one circle with a hornet or mirage, that's what usually ends up happening. It's here where I *feel* like I've lost some rudder authority and/or pitch authority.

I've never turned off Yaw SAS FWIW so i have no idea how it behaves with Yaw off. Roll SAS is off for any BFM that I do however.

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[Spurts]

So, I like to play around at 25+ AoA, and I definitely feel like pure rudder control is reduced a bit, but not much.  Cross control is improved I think.  At Hornet speeds I hold full rudder "down" into the direction I want to turn while pulling the stick "up" away from the turn as needed and the cross control lets me continue in the direction of turn easily and I can switch the inputs to reverse the turn.  Once I switch there is rocking unless you drop AoA. 

I was also able to do a Barber pole of 35+ AoA with 17-198 dps rotation, ~170KIAS, 18,000ft/m descent with this input.  Pulling back the inside engine out of burner gave 40+ AoA, 30+dps rotation, ~160 KIAS, and the same 18,000ft/min descent.  Recovery was as easy as moving inside engine back to burner, remove cross control stick, and apply reverse rudder (over 25dps rotation to less than 10 in two seconds)

[Callsign JoNay]

I agree with the consensus that rudder control above 25 units is lacking. Like Spurts said, you need to cross control it with stick in the opposite direction of the desired roll to get the plane to turn. I'm not sure if this is accurate or not, but it contradicts mission 01 of Speed and Angels which instructs you to max the AOA and "use rudder only for turns". (It's not possible in the current OB to roll the jet this way without some cross control).  I believe Paco, a real life SME, advised on the campaign, so that makes me wonder if rudder control should be adjusted.

[Redliner7]

I agree with the consensus that rudder control above 25 units is lacking. Like Spurts said, you need to cross control it with stick in the opposite direction of the desired roll to get the plane to turn. I'm not sure if this is accurate or not, but it contradicts mission 01 of Speed and Angels which instructs you to max the AOA and "use rudder only for turns". (It's not possible in the current OB to roll the jet this way without some cross control).  I believe Paco, a real life SME, advised on the campaign, so that makes me wonder if rudder control should be adjusted.

I hope Heatblur looks at this.

If they verified high AOA FM with SME in '21 and made adjustments for yaw SAS since then, it might've been some unintentional side effects.

Definitely gotta figure out new ways to beat the Bugs until then

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[fat creason]

Guys, there is no bug here, there's nothing "look at". The aircraft is perfectly controllable above 25 units and behaves exactly as described in the manual AND our pilot SME agrees with the current behavior. See the attached video and the controls overly for proof. I guess it bears repeating: the Yaw SAS change has nothing to do with rudder authority or high AOA controllability. Perhaps you're getting so slow that none of the surfaces work effectively? You can't expect to maintain controllability down to zero airspeed, that's not how aircraft work. I recommend you practice high AOA flight if you're struggling, it's not a flight model issue, it's a PEBKAC error. 

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by fat creason

[Victory205]

We’re constantly evaluating and looking for areas to improve. I checked the high alpha handling again last night and it’s correct. The rudders do blank and reduce roll rate at the extreme alpha values that sim pilots use, far beyond what was typical in real life. For example, the only time I ever accepted a flat scissors was when on cruise with tanks and ordnance, restricted to a short mil power 1v1 due to fuel considerations. Pegged AOA below 100 knots is a great way to die.

I have papers in work for a host of subjects, including wing rock and realistic buffet cues and employment; trim, inflight refueling, general handling, spin entry and recovery, vertical recovery, CASE I landings, etc. It’s going to be awhile before they are added to Fat Creason’s performance page, where they will be easy to find, because the gang is thrashing like mad men on the F4, and I am somewhat wounded at the moment.

Until then, read, and reread the FM performance paper that has already been posted. The F14B is already complete, but for the reasons above, hasn’t been added.

If you think that the F14 is a handful due to wing rock and rudder inputs and handling at high alpha, wait ‘till you see the F4…

Good luck, Fly pretty.

[Nealius]

He's alive! I've been craving some straight-to-the-point literature on handling practices. Can't wait to read those papers whenever they come out.

[Redliner7]

Thank you!

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