correct as-is Auto lock in TWS mode

[alx_sav]

Hi guys,

I noticed after last update (2.8.6.41066 Open Beta) that when I'm entering in TWS mode, will atomically lock first the first target, even is at 60nm and the radar set at 40, without pressing NWS or other button..

And is hard to unlock or lock the wanted target in this way..

What I'm missing?  

Thanks

[Viral-51st-Vfw]

Short answer "as designed"

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/325911-shouldnt-the-nsw-button-undesignate-targets-when-pressed/?do=findComment&comment=5218306&share_tid=325911&share_pid=5218306&share_fid=74365&share_type=t&link_source=app

In STT, the NWS/Undesignate button will drop the lock and return-to-search (RTS) to the previous search mode.
In RWS, the NWS/Undesignate button will step the L&S designation through all valid trackfiles (provided no DT2 is present, otherwise will swap L&S/DT2).
In TWS, the NWS/Undesignate button will perform the same function as RWS, except TWS demands an L&S is always present, and will set the highest ranked trackfile as L&S automatically when TWS is entered, provided no L&S is already present (this cannot be removed unless no valid trackfiles are present).
To remove an L&S designation in RWS, press the RSET button on the ATTK (PB14) or AZ/EL (PB17) formats.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

[alx_sav]

I know this, the problem is that when i'm entering in TWS mode will auto lock a target..entering in rws RSET, to unlock, but entering again in TWS will autolock again the fist target...

track file uploaded

tws auto lock.trk

[dorianR666]

14 minutes ago, alx_sav said:

I know this, the problem is that when i'm entering in TWS mode will auto lock a target..entering in rws RSET, to unlock, but entering again in TWS will autolock again the fist target...

it doesnt lock anything. thats designation (L&S). nothing is locked. designation only tells the plane which target you consider as the most important one. lock is stt.

in tws, as long as there is a trackfile, there must be a designation. this is a new change in dcs and thats how its supposed to work.

 

there is nothing wrong with this happening.

Edited June 18, 2023 by dorianR666

[Czar66]

14 minutes ago, alx_sav said:

I know this, the problem is that when i'm entering in TWS mode will auto lock a target..entering in rws RSET, to unlock, but entering again in TWS will autolock again the fist target...

track file uploaded

tws auto lock.trk 550.15 kB · 1 download

It is still as designed. TWS will always auto lock/designate the highest priority target.

In the end, the auto lock/designation is handy. You will want it. You can cycle contacts with 'undesignate' button. If you just want to scan, just leave at RWS.

I was very used to live with the bug where TWS wouldn't auto lock/designate and when they fixed it to the real life behavior, it was weird. But today, I would keep it 100%.

Want to lock/designate something ahead? Cursor to its vicinity> TDC pressed> TWS and soft lock will happen without losing time of fine scrolling the cursor onto a target> Hard lock it with AACQ instantly if needed.
If you have two contacts, the highest priority will soft lock while the second is scanned, cycle between both with 'undesignate'. If you want to soft lock/designate both it will relieve you the first TDC press onto the first bandit.

It is better/more efficient this way. It is also accurate to the real thing.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Czar66
Wordings for easily understand 'designating'

[Raisuli]

1 hour ago, Viral-51st-Vfw said:

Short answer "as designed"

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/325911-shouldnt-the-nsw-button-undesignate-targets-when-pressed/?do=findComment&comment=5218306&share_tid=325911&share_pid=5218306&share_fid=74365&share_type=t&link_source=app
 

 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


 

 

Well, this answers a question I've been ignoring for a while.  Thanks!

[atercygnus]

The problem there is it also auto-locks friendly contacts, which should not be the case. Otherwise, tws mode became useless, once in the pace of a battle you pick you buddy and can shot him easily.

[Shimmergloom667]

35 minutes ago, atercygnus said:

The problem there is it also auto-locks friendly contacts, which should not be the case. Otherwise, tws mode became useless, once in the pace of a battle you pick you buddy and can shot him easily.

It still doesnt lock a thing. It designates the L&S. If, for some reason, a friendly plane is the highest-ranking trackfile it will correctly become the L&S.

[atercygnus]

17 часов назад, Shimmergloom667 сказал:

It still doesnt lock a thing. It designates the L&S. If, for some reason, a friendly plane is the highest-ranking trackfile it will correctly become the L&S.

In a messy environment with lots of contacts this makes things really hard. It's not enough to just press undesignate, and launch another missile, you need to get sure contact, you just designated isn't a friend. It takes a seconds, that bandits can use to kill you.

Why is this correct? I will be suprised if in real hornet beviour is the same... What is the reason to designate friendly contact?

Edited November 9, 2023 by atercygnus

[Coyle]

1 hour ago, atercygnus said:

In a messy environment with lots of contacts this makes things really hard. It's not enough to just press undesignate, and launch another missile, you need to get sure contact, you just designated isn't a friend. It takes a seconds, that bandits can use to kill you.

Why is this correct? I will be suprised if in real hornet beviour is the same... What is the reason to designate friendly contact?

 

And then you learn that the Navy doesn't fly around with master arm on even upon entering the AO, only when you're about to deploy your weapons - all adding to those precious seconds. Nobody said being a fighter pilot was easy

The system works fine as intended, what's not working is our lack of proper MSI, where every track on the MC level is able to be designated. No fiddling with radar or other sensors, etc. This would mostly solve your issue.

[Hobel]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb Coyle:

And then you learn that the Navy doesn't fly around with master arm on even upon entering the AO, only when you're about to deploy your weapons - all adding to those precious seconds. Nobody said being a fighter pilot was easy

The system works fine as intended, what's not working is our lack of proper MSI, where every track on the MC level is able to be designated. No fiddling with radar or other sensors, etc. This would mostly solve your issue.

I'm not so familiar with the F18, but wouldn't it be possible for the F18 to assign the contacts to a priority list?
a hot target should be more interesting than a cold one and track it preferably or at least put it first in the listing.

 

Currently it is sorted by range but the aspect does not matter
It currently looks like this.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Hobel

[Hazardpro]

On 6/18/2023 at 8:21 AM, alx_sav said:

Hi guys,

I noticed after last update (2.8.6.41066 Open Beta) that when I'm entering in TWS mode, will atomically lock first the first target, even is at 60nm and the radar set at 40, without pressing NWS or other button..

And is hard to unlock or lock the wanted target in this way..

What I'm missing?  

Thanks

There is no auto-lock. What the radar is doing is simply designating a track as L&S. You need to go back to the manual and review the difference between radar modes.

[Viral-51st-Vfw]

I'm not so familiar with the F18, but wouldn't it be possible for the F18 to assign the contacts to a priority list?
a hot target should be more interesting than a cold one and track it preferably or at least put it first in the listing.
 
Currently it is sorted by range but the aspect does not matter
It currently looks like this.

https://forum.dcs.world/index.php?/topic/336775-Radar-priority-Bug#entry5319574

51st vfw

[Hobel]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb Viral-51st-Vfw:

https://forum.dcs.world/index.php?/topic/336775-Radar-priority-Bug#entry5319574

51st vfw
 

ah it is reported. thx

Edited November 9, 2023 by Hobel

[atercygnus]

2 часа назад, Coyle сказал:

And then you learn that the Navy doesn't fly around with master arm on even upon entering the AO, only when you're about to deploy your weapons - all adding to those precious seconds. Nobody said being a fighter pilot was easy

The system works fine as intended, what's not working is our lack of proper MSI, where every track on the MC level is able to be designated. No fiddling with radar or other sensors, etc. This would mostly solve your issue.

Thanks! Can you explain this "lack of proper MSI" thing? How it should look like? Is it planned? And what is MC level?

Edited November 9, 2023 by atercygnus

[Coyle]

1 hour ago, atercygnus said:

Thanks! Can you explain this "lack of proper MSI" thing? How it should look like? Is it planned? And what is MC level?

 

In most every day aircraft, your F-14s, 15s, even the 16s, the radar works in a vacuum. You tell it where to look, and if you find contacts you can interact with them, otherwise it has no idea whats going on. Even aided with data-link, those contacts are simply plastered over the screen, the radar still doesn't know they are there - thus you must still tell the radar where to look.

Not so in our F/A-18. All information fed by various sensors, the data-link, HARM, CIT, ASPJ, RWR, ATFLIR and of course the radar is first fed into the computer where they are all extrapolated into usable, often intractable track files where all these sensors can reference back at, already knowing the shared information they contain.

My radar can be looking to the right, contributing additional information to contacts it's currently looking at, but it will know there's contacts to the left, and will easily turn to look at them with a press of a button if commanded to because the radar is not working in a vacuum like previously stated.

This is why TWS is a primary deployment method in our jet vs say, the F-15 and even the F-16. The jet often already knows where everything already is so in reality our tracks are that much stronger aided by all sensors. In contrast to this you might hear an F-16 pilot say TWS is 'track while scam' and would never use it. But this is DCS, and TWS has become a DCSism and often works too well for these other aircraft.

Sensor fusion, the F/A-18 did it first, the F-35 does it better.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Coyle

[atercygnus]

11 часов назад, Coyle сказал:

In most every day aircraft, your F-14s, 15s, even the 16s, the radar works in a vacuum. You tell it where to look, and if you find contacts you can interact with them, otherwise it has no idea whats going on. Even aided with data-link, those contacts are simply plastered over the screen, the radar still doesn't know they are there - thus you must still tell the radar where to look.

Not so in our F/A-18. All information fed by various sensors, the data-link, HARM, CIT, ASPJ, RWR, ATFLIR and of course the radar is first fed into the computer where they are all extrapolated into usable, often intractable track files where all these sensors can reference back at, already knowing the shared information they contain.

My radar can be looking to the right, contributing additional information to contacts it's currently looking at, but it will know there's contacts to the left, and will easily turn to look at them with a press of a button if commanded to because the radar is not working in a vacuum like previously stated.

This is why TWS is a primary deployment method in our jet vs say, the F-15 and even the F-16. The jet often already knows where everything already is so in reality our tracks are that much stronger aided by all sensors. In contrast to this you might hear an F-16 pilot say TWS is 'track while scam' and would never use it. But this is DCS, and TWS has become a DCSism and often works too well for these other aircraft.

Sensor fusion, the F/A-18 did it first, the F-35 does it better.

 

So, If we will have this proper MSI, we can just tell the radar to bug the target, currently presented with the C2 track? That sounds fine, no need to scroll and jerking antenna elevation knob.

But I still can`t get how this will solve the problem of bugging(or designating) friendly targets? And why this still reasonable, to treat your buddy as a bandit, and potentially shoot him?
Am I get it right, that when and if ED will implement this proper MSI, radar will know this trackfile is a friend, and will not bug him with undesignate button in TWS mode?

Also can you explain what do you mean by MC level?

Do you have any clues, is this things planned to be implemented by ED?

[dorianR666]

11 hours ago, atercygnus said:

when and if ED will implement this proper MSI

most likely never

11 hours ago, atercygnus said:

Also can you explain what do you mean by MC level?

MC = mission computer, there is 2 of them and they compute what you see on the screens.

Edited November 10, 2023 by dorianR666

[Czar66]

On 11/10/2023 at 4:58 AM, atercygnus said:

And why this still reasonable, to treat your buddy as a bandit, and potentially shoot him?
 

Isn't the point of these sims to play as the human element?

Lots of proper procedures to avoid shooting down a friendly. The Hornet has: Working IFF (SA page+HUD+Radar screen), TPOD visual ID (if you're carrying them), Mk1 eyeballs (every pilot has at least 1, I think), communication (two radios).

If it is about quake like A-A servers, an automation to not shoot on IFF positive replied contacts will give you no benefit on overall learning and experience of the simulator. Lower level tech will give you a larger play area. This is why 3rd gen and early 4th gen are so appealing gameplay/simplay/tacticalplay wise.

[Hobel]

vor 15 Stunden schrieb Czar66:

Isn't the point of these sims to play as the human element?

Lots of proper procedures to avoid shooting down a friendly. The Hornet has: Working IFF (SA page+HUD+Radar screen), TPOD visual ID (if you're carrying them), Mk1 eyeballs (every pilot has at least 1, I think), communication (two radios).

If it is about quake like A-A servers, an automation to not shoot on IFF positive replied contacts will give you no benefit on overall learning and experience of the simulator. Lower level tech will give you a larger play area. This is why 3rd gen and early 4th gen are so appealing gameplay/simplay/tacticalplay wise.

Yes, but if it worked as reported in the other topic , TWS would be much more likely to softlock on  targets that are a danger. as the prioritization is currently not optimal.

[Muchocracker]

There's so much missing from MSI that it compounds on the issue of the system ranking friendlies as the priority 1 trackfile. Right now it's only considering the radar trackfiles in the ranking when it should be all sources including C2 donations. If we had this a friendly would pretty much never be ranked #1 unless there's literally only friendlies to rank. 

You shouldn't be using TWS as the primary mode anyway. The system is going to automatically switch from RWS to TWS on the first amraam shot and then you're fighting the remainder of the engagement in TWS.(we still need this too)

bottom line tho, it is correct that friendlies are counted in the MSI threat matrix and will be ranked accordingly, they are just at the bottom of the list. The problem is that threat matrix is wrong, on top of all the other features of MSI not being present contributing to it. Hopefully it won't take 6 years to at least fix that matrix.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Muchocracker

[atercygnus]

16 часов назад, Muchocracker сказал:

There's so much missing from MSI that it compounds on the issue of the system ranking friendlies as the priority 1 trackfile. Right now it's only considering the radar trackfiles in the ranking when it should be all sources including C2 donations. If we had this a friendly would pretty much never be ranked #1 unless there's literally only friendlies to rank. 

You shouldn't be using TWS as the primary mode anyway. The system is going to automatically switch from RWS to TWS on the first amraam shot and then you're fighting the remainder of the engagement in TWS.(we still need this too)

bottom line tho, it is correct that friendlies are counted in the MSI threat matrix and will be ranked accordingly, they are just at the bottom of the list. The problem is that threat matrix is wrong, on top of all the other features of MSI not being present contributing to it. Hopefully it won't take 6 years to at least fix that matrix.

 

Can you please confirm real hornet consider friendly contacts as treats and bugging them?

All I know about such hazardous hardware is that the developers of this things are super crazy about safety and shooting at something that was recognized as a friend should not be easy.

[norman99]

1 hour ago, atercygnus said:

Can you please confirm real hornet consider friendly contacts as treats and bugging them?

All I know about such hazardous hardware is that the developers of this things are super crazy about safety and shooting at something that was recognized as a friend should not be easy.

But there's more than one reason to designate a L&S beyond shooting them. What about rejoining a tanker?

There's already a safety system that helps to prevent accidental weapons releases.  It's called the Master Arm switch. Unfortunately, I'd say the vast majority of DCS users don't come close to using this switch in the correct manner. 

[Muchocracker]

There's symbology that appears when you DO bug them while having a weapon selected chief. Safety doesnt automatically mean you cant do it.

It's launch and steering for a reason. Finding a tanker, obscured vision (clouds), or just general rejoining with formations after you get separated. There's plenty of reasons to want to track a friendly.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Muchocracker

[rob10]

I wouldn't even consider myself a good at A-A Hornet pilot, but I can say I have NEVER come close to accidentally firing on a friendly.  I deliberately fired on a tanker once that I thought was a hostile, but that was in a pre-datalink mission and it was all on me for not properly identifying a target.

Preventing locking of friendlies (even aside from all the reasons above from why you'd want to) could potentially provide an adversary with an exploit to prevent you from shooting at them.