DCS Newsletter discussion 30th June 2023 - Summer Sale | GFM Development | B-17G Livery competition

[BIGNEWY]

DCS Newsletter 30th June 2023 - Summer Sale | GFM Development | B-17G Livery competition 

 

Dear Fighter Pilots, Partners and Friends,

We hope you are well and enjoying the summer. Don’t forget to take advantage of the super deals available in this year's massive DCS Summer Sale! Up to 50% discounts are available on our popular modules like the DCS: AH-64D and DCS: Supercarrier. Check out the DCS World Shop and Steam now.

We have made good progress on the General Flight Model (GFM), which is currently being tested using the DCS: MiG-29 as the test bed. Based on results, we will be including GFM in more aircraft. Please read on below and stay tuned for more GFM news. 

Dust off your paint brushes help us improve the World War II assets with the B-17G Livery Contest! The top ten liveries will be integrated into the DCS: WWII Asset Pack. Good luck!

Thank you for your passion and support.

Yours sincerely,

Eagle Dynamics

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/newsletters/c0a8c1b425ca8694335038102e715bcf/

[draconus]

ED, you're too generous letting the sale up to 25:59 GMT

Good to hear about the GFM progress

[Kisi]

Where can I get a high res version of the MiG-29 screenshot? Looks stunning!

[Dragon1-1]

OK, got a question, how exactly is GFM going to handle tight and loose formation turns? Because IRL, there are many techniques for turning each specific formation, based on desired turn angle and tactical situation. This should not be constrained to a single method, IMO.

For tight formations, there are two basic ways: fingertip and echelon turns. In the former, we use something not unlike what we have now in DCS, aircraft attempt to maintain the formation exactly. In echelon turns, however, vertical maneuvering is minimal, and the whole formation remains more or less coaltitude, which makes this type of turn easier on power additions.

Now, for spread formations, there are many more options: so called tac turns. You've got a delayed 90 and delayed 45, cross turns, hook turns and shackles. They often result in a change of formation, for example the in place 90 changes the formation from combat spread to trail, while delayed 90 will cause aircraft to switch sides. Then you've got check turns, which are gentle turns that don't change the formation. That's not even all possibilities.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Dragon1-1

[NineLine]

38 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

OK, got a question, how exactly is GFM going to handle tight and loose formation turns? Because IRL, there are many techniques for turning each specific formation, based on desired turn angle and tactical situation. This should not be constrained to a single method, IMO.

For tight formations, there are two basic ways: fingertip and echelon turns. In the former, we use something not unlike what we have now in DCS, aircraft attempt to maintain the formation exactly. In echelon turns, however, vertical maneuvering is minimal, and the whole formation remains more or less coaltitude, which makes this type of turn easier on power additions.

Now, for spread formations, there are many more options: so called tac turns. You've got a delayed 90 and delayed 45, cross turns, hook turns and shackles. They often result in a change of formation, for example the in place 90 changes the formation from combat spread to trail, while delayed 90 will cause aircraft to switch sides. Then you've got check turns, which are gentle turns that don't change the formation. That's not even all possibilities.

 

The goal as I understand and have seen in development is that the AI will learn a number of different turns and how to position themselves through those turns. I won't go into details as I am not involved currently in development or testing, but the goal is yes. Obviously, this is a huge undertaking as you can imagine and as stated in the newsletter, work that has not been seen to this degree before. 

[Silver_Dragon]

46 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

OK, got a question, how exactly is GFM going to handle tight and loose formation turns? Because IRL, there are many techniques for turning each specific formation, based on desired turn angle and tactical situation. This should not be constrained to a single method, IMO.

For tight formations, there are two basic ways: fingertip and echelon turns. In the former, we use something not unlike what we have now in DCS, aircraft attempt to maintain the formation exactly. In echelon turns, however, vertical maneuvering is minimal, and the whole formation remains more or less coaltitude, which makes this type of turn easier on power additions.

Now, for spread formations, there are many more options: so called tac turns. You've got a delayed 90 and delayed 45, cross turns, hook turns and shackles. They often result in a change of formation, for example the in place 90 changes the formation from combat spread to trail, while delayed 90 will cause aircraft to switch sides. Then you've got check turns, which are gentle turns that don't change the formation. That's not even all possibilities.

 

GFM has some time on progress by ED

A demo video by ED, show AI turn formation.

 

[NineLine]

43 minutes ago, Kisi said:

Where can I get a high res version of the MiG-29 screenshot? Looks stunning!

[Dragon1-1]

Just now, NineLine said:

The goal as I understand and have seen in development is that the AI will learn a number of different turns and how to position themselves through those turns. I won't go into details as I am not involved currently in development or testing, but the goal is yes. Obviously, this is a huge undertaking as you can imagine and as stated in the newsletter, work that has not been seen to this degree before. 

I'd love to hear more about it. With a flightplan, will we have control over what turn the AI will use? Also, what about leading a flight? Typically, lead will signal what kind of turn will be done and when, by voice and/or by appropriate wing movement. It can, of course, be pre-briefed, as well, but a distinct signal is typically given (except for check turns, except when announced by voice). AI lead should be doing that, and player should be encouraged to signal turns, as well. Tankers, specifically, will typically announce every turn to any chicks they might have in tow.

It'd be great if more info could be provided, either in newsletter or a separate white paper. Not necessarily about progress in implementation, but rather about the design of AI that is being implemented. GFM itself looks amazing, but the improved AI will change how we cooperate with it either as lead or as wing. Realistic wing-lead interactions would be wonderful to have, particularly AI leads signaling turns. 

[Hotdognz]

Do you need the WW2 Asset pack to paint B17 skins ?? for the comp ??.

[draconus]

6 hours ago, Hotdognz said:

Do you need the WW2 Asset pack to paint B17 skins ?? for the comp ??.

Technically no, you need Photoshop to work outside of DCS. But then you need the model for screeshots and testing so you have to at least try the pack for 2 weeks.

[Yo-Yo]

17 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

OK, got a question, how exactly is GFM going to handle tight and loose formation turns? Because IRL, there are many techniques for turning each specific formation, based on desired turn angle and tactical situation. This should not be constrained to a single method, IMO.

For tight formations, there are two basic ways: fingertip and echelon turns. In the former, we use something not unlike what we have now in DCS, aircraft attempt to maintain the formation exactly. In echelon turns, however, vertical maneuvering is minimal, and the whole formation remains more or less coaltitude, which makes this type of turn easier on power additions.

Now, for spread formations, there are many more options: so called tac turns. You've got a delayed 90 and delayed 45, cross turns, hook turns and shackles. They often result in a change of formation, for example the in place 90 changes the formation from combat spread to trail, while delayed 90 will cause aircraft to switch sides. Then you've got check turns, which are gentle turns that don't change the formation. That's not even all possibilities.

 

We have to take in account two main ways of formation turns: predetermined or combat, when leader and wingman can switch sides, and the way they flies in DCS  from the ancient times, when the side and formation type  are set from the start and can be changed only after leader command. 
So, the first one is new for DCS and is in plans ,  it is a bit easier. The task we work on now is to maintain our four planes together in DCS formation to obtain compatibility with the old AI. 
This kind of turn is still useful for not steep turns, on the route, for example.
 

16 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I'd love to hear more about it. With a flightplan, will we have control over what turn the AI will use? Also, what about leading a flight? Typically, lead will signal what kind of turn will be done and when, by voice and/or by appropriate wing movement. It can, of course, be pre-briefed, as well, but a distinct signal is typically given (except for check turns, except when announced by voice). AI lead should be doing that, and player should be encouraged to signal turns, as well. Tankers, specifically, will typically announce every turn to any chicks they might have in tow.

It'd be great if more info could be provided, either in newsletter or a separate white paper. Not necessarily about progress in implementation, but rather about the design of AI that is being implemented. GFM itself looks amazing, but the improved AI will change how we cooperate with it either as lead or as wing. Realistic wing-lead interactions would be wonderful to have, particularly AI leads signaling turns. 

Yes, it is a good point, and we are discussing the way leader could signal the turn.  It's not a big problem, if the leader is AI, but can be a problem for human leader.
Anyway, we will try to prepare some ways to sand this issue.

[Dragon1-1]

That's really nice to hear.  FYI, IRL, at least in USAF, turns are signaled by radio ("Viper one, ninety right.", or whatever type of turn is desired), or, if radio silence is desired, by a steeply banked, but low G 30 degree check turn (known as "wing flash", because it's very easy to see). At night, they mostly use the radio, the check turn can be hard to see at night even if the lights are on. At least, that's how it's done in Korea.